LOTR:Allegory or Just Good Fantasy? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lomelinde · 03-23-2002, 10:48 PM

Ok, I know this has probably been brought up before, but I am curious to read other people's thought on the matter. Is LOTR an allegory of any sort or is it just another great fantasy story? I've read articles where people compare it to everything from World War 2 to stories from the Bible. I personally don't think LOTR symbolizes anything or represents any event,real or imagined,but I'm not sure. I don't know if Tolkien was trying to accomplish anything or spread a message of any sort through his writings, but either way I will always admire his works. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

twinkle · 03-23-2002, 11:35 PM

as far as i know tolkien said he wasn't being allegorical at all, but surely anyone's outlook is colored a little by what goes on around them in the world....

twinkle

red · 03-24-2002, 10:45 AM

You're right, Lomelinde, it has been brought up many times. Here is one of the most complete discussions we've had so far, though, unfortunately, a few posts were lost due to a technical problem... Trilogy and Bible

Lush · 03-24-2002, 01:56 PM

Writers always shriek and yell at the thought that their work may be taken as allegory, because they detest the connotations. Though if you sit down to write a book, you will always insert your own views on certain issues into it, whether consciously or subconsciously.
I think most writers deny that allegory has any place within their work due to the fact that they don't want the said work to be misinterpreted, and the story and artistry to be overshadowed by the continuous prying and delving into the text for 'hidden meaning.'
I should know. One of the best poems I've ever written deals with being an immigrant in a conservative, WASPy society. However, due to some "questionable" imagery, everyone who reads it thinks it's about sex. All of the anger, and anguish of the poem gets overshadowed by people's obsession with "undertones" and "symbolisms." Ugh! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Imagine how annoyed Tolkien was by the very possibility of having his life's work dissected in such a senseless fashion, and this being on a huge, world-wide scale. Of course he would deny that there is any allegory in it.
That way, people are prompted to look for meaning in LotR, which is more than allegory, and serves a nobler purpose.

ElanorGamgee · 03-24-2002, 02:50 PM

Tolkien denied that his works are allegory, and his word is good enough for me, especially since after reading several of his novels I really don't see any evidence of allegory in them. However, I have picked out several Christian themes that I believe are a result of the importance of the Catholic faith in his life. As a Christian, these themes jump out at me, although they may not be nearly as obvious to a non-Christian. Some also claim to see the influence of WWII in his works. I believe that Tolkien incorporated the important things in his life into his writing, whether intentionally or not, though not so much as to make his works allegory.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: ElanorGamgee ]

VanimaEdhel · 03-26-2002, 02:27 PM

Do you all have the Silmarillion? If so, read the letter to Milton Waldman. Mr. Tolkien mentioned that. He said that it was not allegory. I do believe though that, whether or not he meant it, he HAD to be influenced with things he read and what happened all around him. If you read about the creation of Arda, a lot of the tales remind me of the Bible. Morgoth reminds me much of the story of Satan and Aule even reminds me a bit of Adam and Eve in a way. Whether or not he knew it, Tolkien was probably subconsciously influenced by the Bible and other creation myths he had heard.

That is what I think anyway (Hey: I just realized: not bad for a 14 year old!)

Mirkgirl · 03-26-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Whether or not he knew it, Tolkien was probably subconsciously influenced by the Bible and other creation myths he had heard.

Whether or not I know it, I'm subconsciously influenced by everythingI've ever heard of - myths, hystory, literature, quotes, discussions, movies, even stupid chats... everything is somewhere in my brain and my brain is working with it

Whether or not Tolkein knew it, writing of big spiders he was remembering some man's /most likely female/ reactions on little spiders, for example...

LúthienTinúviel · 03-26-2002, 11:16 PM

Very interesting topic. I agree that Tolkien did not conciously make LotR allegorical. He scoffed at the notion. Especially when people started saying that the Scaouring of the Shire was an allegory for WWII. He thought it was absolutely absurd. And as for the spiders, I do know that Tolkien had a very close encounter with a tarantula when he lived in Africa. He was pretty young, but he heard lots of stories about it. That might have given him an idea about the spiders. Just a thought.

Joy · 03-26-2002, 11:38 PM

Concerning spiders, I wonder what Shelob and Ungilant may have looked like if Tolkien had encounted the spider in Japan? Have you ever heard of the Bannana Spider?? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Haldir · 03-27-2002, 12:13 PM

Read it like it's just a great fantasy book,
because if you'll start searching for deeper
meanings, you'll lose your mind [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

P.S.
take a notebook and start writing a fantasy
book of your own, as much as you can, even
just one chapter, when you'll finish it, read
it to yourself and start looking for deeper
meanings...you got those even if you don't mean
to have those [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Kalessin · 03-27-2002, 08:26 PM

The 4-page epic that is the 'Trilogy and Bible' thread in The Books section really covers this in a lot of depth and detail, from a variety of perspectives. I recommend it highly!

But briefly - Tolkien explicitly and repeatedly denied any allegorical intent, and addressed the WWI, WWII, Biblical and other connotations in detail as part of those denials. Allegory is a specific literary device that requires the author's conscious intention ... so any similarities or apparent references in Tolkien are NOT allegory - unless you think Tolkien was lying. Its as simple as that.

What often happens is the appropriation by us, the readers, of his stories within our own desired or preferred contexts. If you like Tolkien, you will believe (quite naturally) that his work (and therefore Tolkien himself) echoes aspects of your own worldview. This is like watching a good actor play a part and ending up feeling like you know him or her (in character) - with Tolkien, it's his skill as an author that engages you as a reader.

That's one theory, anyway [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] read the Trilogy and Bible thread!

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

03-23-2002, 10:48 PM	#1
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	LOTR:Allegory or Just Good Fantasy? Ok, I know this has probably been brought up before, but I am curious to read other people's thought on the matter. Is LOTR an allegory of any sort or is it just another great fantasy story? I've read articles where people compare it to everything from World War 2 to stories from the Bible. I personally don't think LOTR symbolizes anything or represents any event,real or imagined,but I'm not sure. I don't know if Tolkien was trying to accomplish anything or spread a message of any sort through his writings, but either way I will always admire his works. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

03-23-2002, 11:35 PM	#2
twinkle Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: my little blooming garden Posts: 45	as far as i know tolkien said he wasn't being allegorical at all, but surely anyone's outlook is colored a little by what goes on around them in the world.... twinkle __________________ “For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomable at the foundations of the Earth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

03-24-2002, 10:45 AM	#3
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 366	You're right, Lomelinde, it has been brought up many times. Here is one of the most complete discussions we've had so far, though, unfortunately, a few posts were lost due to a technical problem... Trilogy and Bible __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

03-24-2002, 01:56 PM	#4
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Writers always shriek and yell at the thought that their work may be taken as allegory, because they detest the connotations. Though if you sit down to write a book, you will always insert your own views on certain issues into it, whether consciously or subconsciously. I think most writers deny that allegory has any place within their work due to the fact that they don't want the said work to be misinterpreted, and the story and artistry to be overshadowed by the continuous prying and delving into the text for 'hidden meaning.' I should know. One of the best poems I've ever written deals with being an immigrant in a conservative, WASPy society. However, due to some "questionable" imagery, everyone who reads it thinks it's about sex. All of the anger, and anguish of the poem gets overshadowed by people's obsession with "undertones" and "symbolisms." Ugh! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Imagine how annoyed Tolkien was by the very possibility of having his life's work dissected in such a senseless fashion, and this being on a huge, world-wide scale. Of course he would deny that there is any allegory in it. That way, people are prompted to look for meaning in LotR, which is more than allegory, and serves a nobler purpose. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-24-2002, 02:50 PM	#5
ElanorGamgee Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 314	Tolkien denied that his works are allegory, and his word is good enough for me, especially since after reading several of his novels I really don't see any evidence of allegory in them. However, I have picked out several Christian themes that I believe are a result of the importance of the Catholic faith in his life. As a Christian, these themes jump out at me, although they may not be nearly as obvious to a non-Christian. Some also claim to see the influence of WWII in his works. I believe that Tolkien incorporated the important things in his life into his writing, whether intentionally or not, though not so much as to make his works allegory. [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: ElanorGamgee ] __________________ Soli Deo Gloria

03-26-2002, 02:27 PM	#6
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	Do you all have the Silmarillion? If so, read the letter to Milton Waldman. Mr. Tolkien mentioned that. He said that it was not allegory. I do believe though that, whether or not he meant it, he HAD to be influenced with things he read and what happened all around him. If you read about the creation of Arda, a lot of the tales remind me of the Bible. Morgoth reminds me much of the story of Satan and Aule even reminds me a bit of Adam and Eve in a way. Whether or not he knew it, Tolkien was probably subconsciously influenced by the Bible and other creation myths he had heard. That is what I think anyway (Hey: I just realized: not bad for a 14 year old!) __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-26-2002, 11:16 PM	#8
LúthienTinúviel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 76	Very interesting topic. I agree that Tolkien did not conciously make LotR allegorical. He scoffed at the notion. Especially when people started saying that the Scaouring of the Shire was an allegory for WWII. He thought it was absolutely absurd. And as for the spiders, I do know that Tolkien had a very close encounter with a tarantula when he lived in Africa. He was pretty young, but he heard lots of stories about it. That might have given him an idea about the spiders. Just a thought. __________________ Such lissom limbs no more shall run on the green earth beneath the sun; so fair a maid no more shall be from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea. http://www.thereandbackagain.net

03-26-2002, 11:38 PM	#9
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Concerning spiders, I wonder what Shelob and Ungilant may have looked like if Tolkien had encounted the spider in Japan? Have you ever heard of the Bannana Spider?? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

03-27-2002, 12:13 PM	#10
Haldir Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 40	Read it like it's just a great fantasy book, because if you'll start searching for deeper meanings, you'll lose your mind [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] P.S. take a notebook and start writing a fantasy book of your own, as much as you can, even just one chapter, when you'll finish it, read it to yourself and start looking for deeper meanings...you got those even if you don't mean to have those [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "In place of a Lord you shall have a Queen, not Dark but Beautiful and Terrible as the Dawn, Treacherous as the Sea, Stronger than the foundations of the Earth all shall love me and dispair"

03-27-2002, 08:26 PM	#11
Kalessin Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Earthsea, or London Posts: 175	The 4-page epic that is the 'Trilogy and Bible' thread in The Books section really covers this in a lot of depth and detail, from a variety of perspectives. I recommend it highly! But briefly - Tolkien explicitly and repeatedly denied any allegorical intent, and addressed the WWI, WWII, Biblical and other connotations in detail as part of those denials. Allegory is a specific literary device that requires the author's conscious intention ... so any similarities or apparent references in Tolkien are NOT allegory - unless you think Tolkien was lying. Its as simple as that. What often happens is the appropriation by us, the readers, of his stories within our own desired or preferred contexts. If you like Tolkien, you will believe (quite naturally) that his work (and therefore Tolkien himself) echoes aspects of your own worldview. This is like watching a good actor play a part and ending up feeling like you know him or her (in character) - with Tolkien, it's his skill as an author that engages you as a reader. That's one theory, anyway [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] read the Trilogy and Bible thread! [ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]