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03-24-2003, 07:12 PM | #1 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
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mimicking his counsellors?
"Saruman, Saruman!
Saruman, you missed your path in life. You should have been the king's jester and earned your bread, and stripes too, by mimicking his counsellors. Ah me!" Gandalf What did G. mean by mimicking his counsellors? [ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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03-24-2003, 07:19 PM | #2 |
Wight
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I think he meant mimicking the king(the one he was jester to)'s Councillors. It's a pretty big insult I always think. Kind of like Saruman doesn't have anything original to say.
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03-24-2003, 07:20 PM | #3 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
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In a traditional midevial monarchy there was the king, and then his court, or counsellors. The jester would have preformed before the king, in some cases by making fun of the members of the court.
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03-24-2003, 10:26 PM | #4 |
Late Istar
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Saruman's "counsel" sounds like a jester's mockery of true counsel.
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03-24-2003, 10:44 PM | #5 |
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
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I believe that Gandalf was trying to "break the spell" of Saruman's voice over his audience through laughter, which actually is a pretty good tactic. (Though I never thought Gandalf's line was that funny.)
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03-24-2003, 10:51 PM | #6 |
Master of the Secret Fire
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I always took it to literally mean become a jester and mimic the counsellors who paraded around doing nothing helpful, being in essence, Wormtongue. He was saying Saruman would have suceeded more by putting his voice to use as Wormtongue did.
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03-25-2003, 11:13 AM | #7 |
Haunting Spirit
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I agree with beren..
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03-25-2003, 03:12 PM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
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03-25-2003, 03:32 PM | #9 |
Spectre of Decay
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Actually the Royal Counsel (at least in England) was a committee of senior nobles and churchmen who advised the king on state affairs. Gandalf is saying that Saruman sounds like a parody of a counsellor (politician if you will), whereas originally he had been the real thing. A very biting comment indeed, considering Saruman's new status. As Carlas says, he had become little more than Sauron's sidekick, so jester was an apt description.
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03-25-2003, 03:55 PM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think that Gandalf was pointing out that the way that Saruman talked was much like Grima Wormtongue. Wormtongue was always wispering in the kings ears, pursuading the king that he was too weak and getting him to do things that were not in Rohan's best interest. Saruman was talking in the same way, acting as though he was innocent. Gandalf is saying that these words mean nothing, I see your plan, it won't work on me! You are as bad as Wormtounge. Thats what I think.
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03-25-2003, 07:52 PM | #11 |
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I think after reviewing the wide variety of opinions [which accurately mirrored some of my confused guesses], Squatter and Aiwendil seemded to nail it most closely.
any other thoughts?
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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03-25-2003, 07:57 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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03-25-2003, 08:40 PM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I side with Birdland that Gandalf remark was aimed to break the spell of Saruman's voice (well, perhaps any other words + laughter could serve the purpose [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )
The remark may as well be aimed at Grima "the councellor" who (and Gandalf knew this) was inside together with his master. Gandalf might want to belittle Saruman in the eyes -or ears- of Grima, placing him inferior to the former councellor.
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03-26-2003, 07:04 AM | #14 |
Blithe Spirit
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Lindil, I had also always assumed that line had the meaning given it by Squatter and Aiwendil. For what it's worth.
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