Fall of Doriath - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 03-23-2003, 04:51 PM

I read a post on a thread - was it from Lindil? - describing the Fall of Doriath chapter in the Silmarillion as 'fanfiction.'
I'm intrigued. Tell me more...

burrahobbit · 03-23-2003, 05:26 PM

It was written in large part by Tolkien's son.

**lindil** · 03-23-2003, 08:07 PM

If I called it Fan-Fiction, I should have qualified it and called it the only 'canonical' fan-fiction we have [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

It is the only part of the Silmarillion where CJRT had to step in and not just make a few editorial glosses and smooth transistions, update names and things like that.

With the Ruin of Doriath he took some projected plot outlines and even details from some of his fathers Letters, and then added the section about the Dwearves already being within the Girdle and working for THingol when the Nauglamir arrived.

I think btw he did a masterful job and was quite right to step in a bridge the gap, although he has reproached himself for it since.

What he should really reproach himself for imo is not locking himself in his room with his father before he died and hashing all of this out ! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But he has certainly done his best to make up for any lack in the Silmarillion by the monumental labor that is HoM-E and UT.

Lalaith · 03-24-2003, 02:41 AM

That's fascinating, and I didn't know that before. Thank you! *runs off to re-read relevant chapters in new light*

Aiwendil · 03-24-2003, 09:35 AM

Quote:

If I called it Fan-Fiction, I should have qualified it and called it the only 'canonical' fan-fiction we have

Canonical? Well, maybe.

But recently I've been looking over the various Ruin of Doriath sources and have altered my opinion on the chapter somewhat. I used to think that Christopher's chapter was probably the best solution that could be found. But I'm now almost convinced that a far less radical revision of the basic story could have been achieved. Though of course, Christopher's version is excellent (it's may favorite piece of fan fiction also).

**lindil** · 03-24-2003, 07:20 PM

actually you will note I called it 'canonical' with quotes [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] and according to some folks [such as the Wight ] it is to be used as canon in the Ency entries for the Downs here.

And also for the casual reader of Tolkien who makes it too the Silm but not to such forums as this ot to HoME, it would logically be received as Canon.

I look fwd to your less radical ideas and esp to seeing what use could be made of the Q30 and LT versions.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Iarwain · 03-24-2003, 07:28 PM

This is fascinating! I've always considered the Fall of Doriath to be one of the most interesting tales in the Silmarillion. Wow.

Lalaith · 03-26-2003, 04:16 AM

Lindil and other wise and well-read folk, I would really like to know, if you have the time, what major differences there are between the Fall of Doriath tale as it stands in Sil, and the sources.

Findegil · 03-26-2003, 04:59 PM

I will try to give a short overview:
The wanderings of Húrin after his realise where somewhat different. But only for the first part we have a full narrative.
Húrin first went to Hithlum and when he could not stir any rebellion against Lorgan the Easterling he abandoned the Land to him and left with a small following. They went to the dale of Sirion and Húrin left his companions and tried to find the entrance to Gondolin.
His companions went to Brethil, because Húrin had said he had an errand there, and they hoped to find him again. But their coming and the thought of Húrin coming there stirred some slumbering disquiet of the Haladin and Húrins companions were band from the Land and lingered around the Taiglin crossing. But they missed Húrin when he went to Brethil and found Morwen at the Stone. After her death Húrin was embittered and went to the Amon Obel. The result of his coming was disastrous. A bitter feud between two branches of the Haladin broke out and all remaining heirs of Haleth were killed in a civil war. The last one died only after he arranged the burial of Morwen with Húrin and he died in Húrins arms begging him to leave Brethil.
With Húrin crossing the Taiglin the full narrative stops. We only get the information that the meet his companies from Hithlum again and the may be gathered some people from Brethil, in addition, that wouldn't be ruled by lesser men and remembered that Húrin was also of Haleth blood.
Obviously he went with that band to Nargothrond and there killed Mîm the Petty-dwarf. When JRR Tolkien wrote his last version about that episode Mîm hadn't occurred as the traitor of Túrin, so that we didn't know how he imagined that encounter.
Húrin and his Man took then the complete treasure of Nargothrond to Doriath. (The Nauglamir were not jet fashioned, the making of the Necklace for Felagund was an editorial addition.) Húrin laid the treasure before Thingol and blamed him for his dealings with his family. In none of JRR Tolkiens version was he realised from Morgoth spell by his talk to Melian. He left the hall and it is told that he killed him self in the end in the western see.
Here it becomes very difficult. In the earliest Version Húrins companies were not willing to get nothing of the treasure and the parley ended in a bloody fight in which they were killed. In the later versions the man died on the road and Húrin went to Doriath and got there some help for the transport. But that last idea was clearly rejected. So we do not know how JRR Tolkien would have deal with that situation.
But the result is clear: The greatest part of the treasure remained in Doriath. Melian advised Thingol to throw the treasure into the Esgalduin. But he was obviously under the spell of the dragon-gold (seen also in The Hobbit in the case of Thorin) and could not bring him self to do it. Since much of the treasure was unwrought gold and silver and lose gemmes he invited the Dwarves of Nogrod to practise their craft on it. Beneath many other beautiful things the Dwarves made for Thingol the Nauglamir including the Silmaril. But when it came to the payment Thingol quarrelled with them about that an in the end drove them of with out or with very little reward.
There upon the Dwarves of Nogrod attacked Doriath. How they were able to cross the Griddle of Melian is one of unsolved problems. JRR Tolkien only mentioned that the Dwarves had to lure Thingol to a fight outside his realm, and kill him. Then Melian departed and the Girdle was removed. Then the Dwarves sacked Menegroth.
From that point on the last ideas of JRR Tolkien were more or less followed by the storyline in The Silamrillion.

I hope that helps to stir some interest in The History of Middle-Earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: For all how participate in the “The translation of the Elvish”-projekt: I am locking forward with excitement for your discussion about that special Chapter!

Lalaith · 03-26-2003, 05:05 PM

That must have taken a long time to type, thank you very much for your trouble. *bows*

So, Tolkien's version is even more sad than that of the Silmarillion. What I find most poignant is that Morgoth's spell is never lifted from Hurin. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 03-26-2003, 09:21 PM

Quote:

So, Tolkien's version is even more sad than that of the Silmarillion

definetly more sad due to it's chaotic state! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] .

Nice summmary Findegil.

I have come to have ever-greater respect for CJRT's version, even though he berates himself over it.

The seemingly intractable problems resulting from the need to 'lure' Thingol out of Doriath with no manuscript tradition for it, the bizareeness of asking the Elves for help to move the treasure to Doriath and THEN insulting Thingol with it, along with the incompatibility of the Q30 and the Wanderings make it a quagmire. The one thing I wish CJRT would have done would be to accomadate the Wanderings more. Still all in all, his father left him lemons and he made lemonaide.

Lalaith · 03-27-2003, 02:56 AM

Lindil, excuse my ignorance, what is Q30?

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-27-2003, 04:27 AM

I agree, Chris Tolkien did a great job in the Fall of Doriath, but one thing I'm confused about is the death of Mablung. It is not mentioned in any drafts/early versions of HoME 11, yet when telling of who wrote Narn i nin Hurin, it is said that Dirhavel got help from Mablung.

Findegil · 03-27-2003, 07:01 AM

Yes, Lalaith, it is much more sad. But that is more true to the nature of the Narn i Chîn Húrin which is clearly a real tragedy.

You are so right, Lindil. It is may be the saddest point in all The History of Middle-Earth when The Wanderings of Húrin stop short.

Respectfully
Findegil

03-23-2003, 04:51 PM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Fall of Doriath I read a post on a thread - was it from Lindil? - describing the Fall of Doriath chapter in the Silmarillion as 'fanfiction.' I'm intrigued. Tell me more... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-23-2003, 05:26 PM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	It was written in large part by Tolkien's son. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

03-23-2003, 08:07 PM	#3
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	If I called it Fan-Fiction, I should have qualified it and called it the only 'canonical' fan-fiction we have [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. It is the only part of the Silmarillion where CJRT had to step in and not just make a few editorial glosses and smooth transistions, update names and things like that. With the Ruin of Doriath he took some projected plot outlines and even details from some of his fathers Letters, and then added the section about the Dwearves already being within the Girdle and working for THingol when the Nauglamir arrived. I think btw he did a masterful job and was quite right to step in a bridge the gap, although he has reproached himself for it since. What he should really reproach himself for imo is not locking himself in his room with his father before he died and hashing all of this out ! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] But he has certainly done his best to make up for any lack in the Silmarillion by the monumental labor that is HoM-E and UT. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-24-2003, 02:41 AM	#4
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	That's fascinating, and I didn't know that before. Thank you! runs off to re-read relevant chapters in new light __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-24-2003, 07:20 PM	#6
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	actually you will note I called it 'canonical' with quotes [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] and according to some folks [such as the Wight ] it is to be used as canon in the Ency entries for the Downs here. And also for the casual reader of Tolkien who makes it too the Silm but not to such forums as this ot to HoME, it would logically be received as Canon. I look fwd to your less radical ideas and esp to seeing what use could be made of the Q30 and LT versions. [ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-24-2003, 07:28 PM	#7
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	This is fascinating! I've always considered the Fall of Doriath to be one of the most interesting tales in the Silmarillion. Wow. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-26-2003, 04:16 AM	#8
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Lindil and other wise and well-read folk, I would really like to know, if you have the time, what major differences there are between the Fall of Doriath tale as it stands in Sil, and the sources. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-26-2003, 04:59 PM	#9
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I will try to give a short overview: The wanderings of Húrin after his realise where somewhat different. But only for the first part we have a full narrative. Húrin first went to Hithlum and when he could not stir any rebellion against Lorgan the Easterling he abandoned the Land to him and left with a small following. They went to the dale of Sirion and Húrin left his companions and tried to find the entrance to Gondolin. His companions went to Brethil, because Húrin had said he had an errand there, and they hoped to find him again. But their coming and the thought of Húrin coming there stirred some slumbering disquiet of the Haladin and Húrins companions were band from the Land and lingered around the Taiglin crossing. But they missed Húrin when he went to Brethil and found Morwen at the Stone. After her death Húrin was embittered and went to the Amon Obel. The result of his coming was disastrous. A bitter feud between two branches of the Haladin broke out and all remaining heirs of Haleth were killed in a civil war. The last one died only after he arranged the burial of Morwen with Húrin and he died in Húrins arms begging him to leave Brethil. With Húrin crossing the Taiglin the full narrative stops. We only get the information that the meet his companies from Hithlum again and the may be gathered some people from Brethil, in addition, that wouldn't be ruled by lesser men and remembered that Húrin was also of Haleth blood. Obviously he went with that band to Nargothrond and there killed Mîm the Petty-dwarf. When JRR Tolkien wrote his last version about that episode Mîm hadn't occurred as the traitor of Túrin, so that we didn't know how he imagined that encounter. Húrin and his Man took then the complete treasure of Nargothrond to Doriath. (The Nauglamir were not jet fashioned, the making of the Necklace for Felagund was an editorial addition.) Húrin laid the treasure before Thingol and blamed him for his dealings with his family. In none of JRR Tolkiens version was he realised from Morgoth spell by his talk to Melian. He left the hall and it is told that he killed him self in the end in the western see. Here it becomes very difficult. In the earliest Version Húrins companies were not willing to get nothing of the treasure and the parley ended in a bloody fight in which they were killed. In the later versions the man died on the road and Húrin went to Doriath and got there some help for the transport. But that last idea was clearly rejected. So we do not know how JRR Tolkien would have deal with that situation. But the result is clear: The greatest part of the treasure remained in Doriath. Melian advised Thingol to throw the treasure into the Esgalduin. But he was obviously under the spell of the dragon-gold (seen also in The Hobbit in the case of Thorin) and could not bring him self to do it. Since much of the treasure was unwrought gold and silver and lose gemmes he invited the Dwarves of Nogrod to practise their craft on it. Beneath many other beautiful things the Dwarves made for Thingol the Nauglamir including the Silmaril. But when it came to the payment Thingol quarrelled with them about that an in the end drove them of with out or with very little reward. There upon the Dwarves of Nogrod attacked Doriath. How they were able to cross the Griddle of Melian is one of unsolved problems. JRR Tolkien only mentioned that the Dwarves had to lure Thingol to a fight outside his realm, and kill him. Then Melian departed and the Girdle was removed. Then the Dwarves sacked Menegroth. From that point on the last ideas of JRR Tolkien were more or less followed by the storyline in The Silamrillion. I hope that helps to stir some interest in The History of Middle-Earth. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: For all how participate in the “The translation of the Elvish”-projekt: I am locking forward with excitement for your discussion about that special Chapter!

03-26-2003, 05:05 PM	#10
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	That must have taken a long time to type, thank you very much for your trouble. bows So, Tolkien's version is even more sad than that of the Silmarillion. What I find most poignant is that Morgoth's spell is never lifted from Hurin. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-27-2003, 02:56 AM	#12
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Lindil, excuse my ignorance, what is Q30? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-27-2003, 04:27 AM	#13
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I agree, Chris Tolkien did a great job in the Fall of Doriath, but one thing I'm confused about is the death of Mablung. It is not mentioned in any drafts/early versions of HoME 11, yet when telling of who wrote Narn i nin Hurin, it is said that Dirhavel got help from Mablung. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

03-27-2003, 07:01 AM	#14
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Yes, Lalaith, it is much more sad. But that is more true to the nature of the Narn i Chîn Húrin which is clearly a real tragedy. You are so right, Lindil. It is may be the saddest point in all The History of Middle-Earth when The Wanderings of Húrin stop short. Respectfully Findegil