Ulmo and the Ring War

[Sharkû]

There are many examples of the great powers of water for good in the course of the War of the Ring, and often are these when all other hope fails, in the most dire need, or as pure miracles.

Sam and Frodo finally find an unspoiled trickle of water from the Ephel Dúath when travelling Mordor; the boat with Boromir's corpse passes the Rauros falls without being affected; the Nazgûl are afraid of water; Ent draught possesses powers of growth; the refuge of Henneth Annûn is behind a waterfall; the victory at the Pelennor comes via the Sea; Tom Bombadil, who rescues the hobbits from Old Man Willow, was gathering water lillies (maybe I should not have put the worst example at the end [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]).

Putting aside the symbolism of water and its just explanation of that in the world of Middle-Earth, we know that water is the element of the Vala Ulmo, the only one who never abandoned the Children, but has in turn often aided them directly indirectly in the early Ages. Could the above examples (to which a good many more could be added) be interventions by the Lord of Waters?

On one hand, we have no proof for that; it is but a theory, founding on evidence, but not simply verifiable. However, we also know that LotR is a story intentionally bereft of all religion. We are not even given the circumstances of the coming of the Istari in it. My point is that it could well be the case that interventions of the Vala kind could be possible, but since the book does not mention this aspect of matters, they are left out and in turn left for us to perceive.

Was Aragorn Ulmo's second Tuor? Did he pity Boromir? Did his arm reach even into the Black Land?

[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

Interesting topic Sharku! I believe that the many instances of water were most likely Ulmo's doing. Of all the valar he seems the "kindest" aiding both elves and men many times. I wouldn't put it past him to help out men in their hour of need.

In the same vein, is it possible that the eagles were sent specifically by Manwe in times of dire need?

[Thingol]

Never thought about it that way, I like it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[zifnab]

Was Aragorn Ulmo's second Tuor? Did he pity Boromir? Did his arm reach even into the Black Land?

Excellent questions, Sharkmeister!

Aragorn, Ulmo’s second Tuor? I can see where that fits in, different circumstances and different places, with different results of course.

Tuor, father of Earendil, which was the father of Elrond and Elros. Ulmo helped Tuor in his “quest” for Gondolin. Ulmo helped Earendil (actually his wife {Elwing} change into the shape of the white sea-bird}, I don’t recall his helping Elrond or Elros. But Aragorn was a descendant of Elros through many generations, which I won’t get into. Elrond was a father-figure to him. So, maybe Ulmo showed some favoritism to Tuor’s line?

Did he pity Boromir? Maybe so, it is said that he was always friends of the Children of Illuvatar, and never abandon them. And that his ‘veins’ ran through out M-E. A radical idea would be that maybe Boromir’s Horn had something to do with it, since Ulmo’s horn is quite renown (the Ulumúri). Highly doubt it, but “horns” aren’t that common in Tolkiens writing. And I have to through some type of nonsense ramble!

Did his arm reach into the Black Land? At first I would say…no. Ulmo was a very powerful Valar, and was revered and respected. But in a lot of text, it mentions that this stream or this lake has been defiled and Ulmo’s power no longer runs through it.

"The springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the waters of the land."

Ulmo has done his far share of helping the Children of Iluvatar, that much is known. Did he help with the “War of the Ring”, I would like to believe so. Maybe not as much as could/should have been. Since the Valar sent the Istari on they job. But Ulmo has helped in wars before, I don’t see it in his nature to sit back, when a good fights going on.

“For nigh on two years after the Dagor Bragollach the Noldor still defended the western pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and Minas Tirith withstood the Orcs.”

I think one Maiar that may be over looked is Ossë. Its another interesting idea. Would he have helped or maybe even hindered the quest? His wife was loved by the Numenoreans, but I think he was feared rather then loved.

“For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom." -Ulmo

“It is said that in the making of Arda he(Melkor) endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him. So it was that long ago there arose great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands. But Uinen, at the prayer of Aulë, restrained Ossë and brought him before Ulmo; and he was pardoned and returned to his allegiance, to which he has remained faithful. For the most part; for the delight in violence has never wholly departed from him, and at times he will rage in his wilfulness without any command from Ulmo his lord. Therefore those who dwell by the sea or go up in ships may love him, but they do not trust him.”


This is a very thought-provoking thread, and I will do much more brain-racking on it!


[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Chance? Or the deliberate intervention of the Valar?

I'm rereading the Silm for the first time since 1983, so be patient as the rusty wheels turn.

The Valar, Maiar and in fact the elves too by the third age, avoided the path of directing change, seeing in it the path of Melkor. They would not cause Frodo to decide, for example, whether to take the ring to Orodruin or no, but left it to him.

If their power over chance were so complete, Frodo would have had an easier time of it. And Melkor would never have been such a problem in the first place.

There is such a thing as having great power, and yet remaining helpless. For example, you or I have great power in controlling the conditions of our lives, we have thermostats, we can choose the food we like and have it delivered. Yet despite our power in our own circle of influence, we can't help an ant with a broken leg. We can throw it a crumb, but saving it is beyond our power. I think I understand Nienna's grief.

Such help however, as a pool of water in need, or the gentle assist down Rauros is in keeping with their means. Much like that crumb is within our ability.

But I agree with Zif, doubt it was Ulmo, in the case of the water in Mordor (though certainly it was he at Rauros). Remember, it was rainwater caught in Mordor.. now who would that be?

-Maril (Not Marile, though I did think of that Sharku, but felt I preferred the masculine form. After all, there are plenty of female Michele's with the masculine one-'L' spelling. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Ulmo]

From Sharku: There are many examples of the great powers of water for good in the course of the War of the Ring, and often are these when all other hope fails, in the most dire need, or as pure miracles.
Sam and Frodo finally find an unspoiled trickle of water from the Ephel Dúath when travelling Mordor; the boat with Boromir's corpse passes the Rauros falls without being affected; the Nazgûl are afraid of water; Ent draught possesses powers of growth; the refuge of Henneth Annûn is behind a waterfall; the victory at the Pelennor comes via the Sea; Tom Bombadil, who rescues the hobbits from Old Man Willow, was gathering water lillies (maybe I should not have put the worst example at the end ).

Putting aside the symbolism of water and its just explanation of that in the world of Middle-Earth, we know that water is the element of the Vala Ulmo, the only one who never abandoned the Children, but has in turn often aided them directly indirectly in the early Ages. Could the above examples (to which a good many more could be added) be interventions by the Lord of Waters?

On one hand, we have no proof for that; it is but a theory, founding on evidence, but not simply verifiable. However, we also know that LotR is a story intentionally bereft of all religion. We are not even given the circumstances of the coming of the Istari in it. My point is that it could well be the case that interventions of the Vala kind could be possible, but since the book does not mention this aspect of matters, they are left out and in turn left for us to perceive.

Was Aragorn Ulmo's second Tuor? Did he pity Boromir? Did his arm reach even into the Black Land?

Interesting thoughts young Sharku, but Ulmo is really the King of the Seas. The Lord of Waters is a misleading term. Yes, I am known as the Lord of Waters, but salt water only! Ulmo has no influence on such matters as Ent draughts, and waterfalls, or water lillies.

And yes, I do keep watch over the Elves and Men. Someone has to do it, and it's sure hasn't been most of the other Valar. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Thank You,

Ulmo has spoken

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Elenhin]

This is an interesting topic indeed.

I don't think that it's really justifiable to say that the Valar, excluding Ulmo, really ever abandonded the Children. They did send the Istari, and I'd say that there was some intervention from Manwe during the War of the Ring (the winds arising at exactly the right time during the Battle of Pelennor), and possibly some from Lorien as well (all the dreams Frodo had in the beginning of his journey). Of course, it was Ulmo who intervened the most.

Tuor's line definitely had a connection with water, and therefore with Ulmo as well. Tuor, Earendil, Elros and many Numenorean Kings after him were all "chosen ones" of Ulmo, and I tend to think that this connection extends to Aragorn as well. This is just a hunch, though - there isn't much text about Aragorn's sea-faring experiences.

I think that Ulmo's interventions are most evident in the cases of Boromir and Faramir. Boromir at Rauros is a quite obvious connection between them and Ulmo, but I don't think that it was the only instance where the sons of Denethor were helped.

"Seek for the sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells,
There shall counsels be taken
Stronger than morgul-spells..."

This is, of course, the poem which Faramir and Boromir heard in their dreams. Where did this prophetic dream come from? My guess is Ulmo. He had influenced both Turgon and Finrod by showing them visions in dreams, and I think that Faramir and Boromir's case was similar.

I tend to agree with the most of you about the water in Mordor: Sauron had defiled the land and its streams so that Ulmo had no way of influencing the waters there, at least without a great effort which would have been against the Valar's non-interventionist policy. Still, it was thought that only Ulmo could ever purify Mordor:
"They had come to the desolation that lay before Mordor: the lasting monument to the dark labour of its slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void; a land defiled, diseased beyond all healing, unless the Great Sea should enter in and wash it with oblivion."

[Feliandreka]

There are references in the Silmarilion which states that Ulmo never abandoned the Children of Iluvatar and never will. To me that suggests involvement, whether JRRT specifically mentions it in Lord of the Rings or not. But what involvement...again, speculation. Here is how I see it.

Ulmo has power in all waters, again from several references in Silmarilion, and therefore was most likely present at the Gladden Fields where the Ring betrayed Isildur. Being a major magical item (forgive the D&D sounding description of the Ring) which was host to a large portion of Sauron's power, it seems reasonable to me that Ulmo the Valar or one of his Miar minions may have known about it simply by its being in a finger of his domain, Anduin the Great.

Here is another leap of conjecture based on my own faith in Ulmo and his lasting concern for the Children. He knew where Gollum had taken the Ring by virtue of being connected to the underground lake Gollum called home "at the very foundations of the Earth" (there it is again, another reference to Ulmo's power from the Silmarilion) that lake is connected by waterways to Anduin the Great and the Sea. At the time there is no defilement in the Misty Mountains to keep Ulmo out as Morgoth and Sauron were able to do. Goblins have no such power. The only creature capable of that might have been the Balrog but he was many miles to the south in the Mines of Moria.

I support the theory that Gandalf was a recipient of the same visions or visitations which prompted Tuor and other characters to be at the right place at the right time so that great events might come to be. Now, the chosen bearer of the Ring, one Bilbo Baggins who is of a race that is resistant to the Ring's power, could not have found it if Gandalf had not chosen him to be a burglar for the 13 dwarves. Why would anyone pick a hobbit like Bilbo to be a burglar...ok, for obvious reasons. The main reason is that Hobbits are resistant to the Ring's powers of curruption.

Again, there is no proof of this but as a reader of all of Tolkien's works over the course of many decades this seems like an obvious conclusion. I don't need proof, I believe it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very nice post, and welcome to the 'Downs, Feliandreka. I like the idea of Ulmo trying to help the Children still, however there are some things in your post which I would dare to oppose.

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

Ulmo has power in all waters, again from several references in Silmarilion, and therefore was most likely present at the Gladden Fields where the Ring betrayed Isildur. Being a major magical item (forgive the D&D sounding description of the Ring) which was host to a large portion of Sauron's power, it seems reasonable to me that Ulmo the Valar or one of his Miar minions may have known about it simply by its being in a finger of his domain, Anduin the Great.

Here is another leap of conjecture based on my own faith in Ulmo and his lasting concern for the Children. He knew where Gollum had taken the Ring by virtue of being connected to the underground lake Gollum called home "at the very foundations of the Earth" (there it is again, another reference to Ulmo's power from the Silmarilion) that lake is connected by waterways to Anduin the Great and the Sea. At the time there is no defilement in the Misty Mountains to keep Ulmo out as Morgoth and Sauron were able to do. Goblins have no such power. The only creature capable of that might have been the Balrog but he was many miles to the south in the Mines of Moria.

The point is, I think Ulmo did not have any power anymore over all the waters in Middle-Earth, as he didn't have in Beleriand a long time ago. All I say here is just my belief, but I think that it was not about particular rule in the sense that the waters in the lands ruled by Morgoth or Sauron would be spoiled and the rest would be okay and clear from his influence. I believe the "essence of evil" was spreading simply by the time as it went, because I got the impression from the books that when it comes to things being spoiled, with Arda (Arda Marred!) it goes from good to the worse. Beleriand was slowly "overrun" by Morgoth and Ulmo could no longer use the waters to their "full potential", so to say. Ulmo tells Tuor:

Originally Posted by UT

and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor.

I believe this does not apply only to this era, i.e. that by the War of Wrath and defeat of Morgoth this effect is not annuled. First, Beleriand of course drowns. Second, after the Drowning of Númenor the Valar lay down their reign over Arda. So technically, even then if Ulmo still HAD any power over the waters in M-E, he should NOT have it anymore after that. However, here I would accept, and maybe even encourage, the possibility that Ulmo would not simply leave it like that. Being the "voice that gainsayeth", he could have as well kind of trespassed this, even further than the Valar just sending the Istari to Middle-Earth (besides, Ulmo did not send any of "his" Maiar with the Wizards - interestingly, as he cared for M-E - so the logical explanation could be that he was engaged with M-E already in some other way, and possibly even on a deeper level).
Nevertheless, I believe, as it usually goes in M-E, that what had already been marred by Morgoth in the First Age was NOT undone, and maybe it even continued, and Men and Elves remained "blind and deaf", in their basis, or then, when Sauron emerged, they again grew "blind and deaf". And as Sauron's power grew, I would say that it's been the same as with Morgoth: Ulmo's power, if there was any still, was withdrawing from the land, too. And that was despite whether Sauron's power was or was not currently growing. It was sufficient that he still existed. Remember Mirkwood: even after Sauron left it, it remained a dark place (and he really left it, for some time, totally).

I am not saying that the waters were totally marred. I think actually, water by itself, "on the very molecular structure", so to speak, was "unmarrable" and had something good in itself (it echoed the Music the best of all things); so for example the Nazgul could not cross the water, whether there would have been Ulmo's direct power right now or not. But I believe if he wanted to interfere directly, he would have to at minimum face many obstacles, and for getting information from the waters in M-E, he certainly got a lot of "interference".

A side note: Have you noticed something interesting in this text I quoted? Ulmo refers to Morgoth as - Melkor! That's actually nice. Everybody started to call him Morgoth in Middle-Earth, and probably had you asked me what Ulmo calls him, without looking into the text, I'd say Morgoth, if for nothing then perhaps just because the people in Middle-Earth are used to it. Interesting, huh? I think after all, Ulmo thinks of Morgoth as "Melkor" - okay, he was used to it, but still - for Tuor it must have been quite shocking to hear "Melkor". I can't think of a good example from our world, but just imagine let's say a band of rebels from the Star Wars, and suddenly one of them would start refer to Darth Vader as "Anakin". That'd be weird, eh?

But back to the topic. That said, even if you contradicted this and said the Great River was at least as large a flow that actually the power of Ulmo could not have disappeared completely from there, I would disagree about the underground lake. I don't think this lake was in any way directly connected to Anduin: after all, it was an underground lake. And for some reason, I think that Ulmo's power did not reach much deep into these waters which were not connected directly, i.e. through flowing, not ground water to the Seas etc. Nasty slimy things, lost pools in the heart of mountains: depending on the circumstances, I think some of those may have been nice and clear places with the "primal" unspoiled water, but as the Ages went by, they became "contaminated". In any case, Ulmo's access to the underground lake would have been far more problematic than let's say to the Bay of Belfalas, from the merely "materialistic" point of view.

[Andsigil]

This topic is far more interesting than yet another "Who would win in a fight between...?" thread.

I've always considered Ulmo to be the most active of the Valar in the affairs of ME, especially since he's the one who governs the fates of ships sailing west with the elves. Not to mention his role in the sinking of Numenor.

That being said, I now wonder about his role as water diety and the Sea of Nurnen.

Thanks to Feliandreka for reviving this topic.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

This topic is far more interesting than yet another "Who would win in a fight between...?" thread.

Indeed

That being said, I now wonder about his role as water diety and the Sea of Nurnen.

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

I have often wondered if the Sea of Núrnen wasn't Tolkien's nod to the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea at least has the River Jordan feeding into it, but if I'm not mistaken, it is believed that the Biblical cities of Sodom and Gammorah were located near its shores (possibly to explain its incredibly high salinity, which does not support much in the way of anything but some microbial life). There's just something there that feels similar, at least to me. I could see Sauron cutting off all tributaries to Mordor's inland sea to prevent Ulmo from having any way of "spying" on him, or "whispering" to his slaves and vassals.

It also makes me wonder about the Nazgul and their aversion to water. While it smacks of the old tale about witches and vampires and their inability to cross flowing water, it differs in that the Nazgul can cross them; they just don't like to. I have wondered if this is because of their aversion to something as inherently clean and pure as free-flowing water, or if it still contains traces of Ulmo's presence, which they might well have reason to fear. I grant you, Tolkien admitted that the whole idea of evil creatures being repelled by water was difficult to sustain (the Anduin would provide a pretty secure barrier to them, if that were the case), but if one considers untainted water as a connection to Ulmo, it might work. Though I suspect Tolkien either didn't care for that notion or it didn't occur to him, since he didn't use it.

And about the eagles: at least during the time of The Hobbit and LotR, every instance I can recall that involves the eagles also somehow involves Gandalf. Even the remaining Fellowship seeing an eagle flying high up during their journey down the Anduin happened because Gandalf asked Gwaihir to scout ahead for him. Though I don't believe he actively summons the eagles -- if that were the case, why would he have spent so long a time stranded atop Orthanc? -- I tend to think that sometimes he does (as before the Black Gates) and the rest of the time, "fortune," probably in the form a nudge from Manwe, sends them where his servant needs them. I might be forgetting some appearance of the Third Age eagles in which Gandalf is nowhere on or behind the scenes, but I can't recall such an instance, if there is one.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

I agree, and while I can't guess the motives of a fictional deity, I would think that Sauron's desecration of the Sea of Nurnen (not exactly an insignificant body of water) would earn him Ulmo's absolute hatred. Hence, his more active role in opposing Sauron.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I have to disagree with the comment above:

Interesting thoughts young Sharku, but Ulmo is really the King of the Seas. The Lord of Waters is a misleading term. Yes, I am known as the Lord of Waters, but salt water only! Ulmo has no influence on such matters as Ent draughts, and waterfalls, or water lillies.

Since in the Silmarillion:

For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his
government; so that the elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all
the veins of the world.

And the continued influence of Ulmo in Middle-earth waters seem
to me the reason that Sauron and his forces feared water (even the
nazgul). Which leads to the perplexing situation where JRRT said
somwhere (in Letters?) he didn't have a good reason why the bad guys
didn't like water. Ulmo's lingering presence is certainly a believable
cause, as it would be an enabling factor in Elrond controlling surrounding
rivers to protect Rivendell.

[Morthoron]

The intriguing thing about Valaric intervention, for me anyway, is the subtle implication that Manwë acted in the War of the Ring. Although it is never stated, I do find it interesting that the coming of the Eagles (and the Eagles of the North were the folk of Thorondor, who was the messenger of Manwë) happened to arrive at the critical moment of the battle before the Black Gates. Did they just decide to attack on their own accord? It doesn't seem plausible, given that their eyries were so far north (unlike in The Hobbit, where they could see Orkish troop movements from their mountain strongholds). After all, Olórin was chosen for the Istari at the behest of Manwë, and it would explain Gandalf's extraordinary relationship with the Eagles better than the mention that he saved Gwaihir from an arrow wound in The Hobbit.

Also, there is the passage in 'The Field of Cormallen' which speaks of Sauron's final fall:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

...black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent; for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

Yes, a 'great wind' (out of nowhere seemingly) took the shadow of Sauron away. Manwë, as we all know is Súlimo, Lord of the winds. Of course, their is also Ghân-buri-Ghân's mention of the wind changing as well. And then there is the death of Saruman:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

...about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shoruded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

So, Saruman's spirit looks in supplication to the West, but a cold wind, as if in final judgment, blows the lingering shadow away. It seems to me, at least by inferrence, that Manwë had more direct interaction at that time than Ulmo.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And the continued influence of Ulmo in Middle-earth waters seem
to me the reason that Sauron and his forces feared water (even the
nazgul). Which leads to the perplexing situation where JRRT said
somwhere (in Letters?) he didn't have a good reason why the bad guys
didn't like water. Ulmo's lingering presence is certainly a believable
cause, as it would be an enabling factor in Elrond controlling surrounding
rivers to protect Rivendell.

Well, I originally thought the same too, but obviously, Tolkien for some reason did not state this as being THE reason. Another aspect is the quality of water by itself: like I mentioned also in my post above, the water is something special, the substance preserving the "echoes of the Song" the best. Water is the only thing that was not corrupted, nor could it have been destroyed (instead, just snow and vapors were formed). And as for the rivers protecting Rivendell, I think more than anything else this was the work of the Elven Ring, and I think that is made clear very plainly in LotR. Because after all, the Nazgul overcame their "hydrophobia" (which was general) and entered the river, but the flood was directed by Elrond.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It seems to me, at least by inferrence, that Manwë had more direct interaction at that time than Ulmo.

Indeed, but hasn't it that been always? Even in the First Age? I mean, the "final blow" had always been delivered by Manwë, or on Manwë's account as the leader of Valar. Ulmo operated possibly secretly, and gave guidance to Tuors and such, but he did not interfere directly, creating a flood to suddenly get rid of a horde of Orcs or such. That was simply not his way.

[Feliandreka]

This is my second posting and I have to say, after spending 3 decades of reading, re-reading and contemplating Tolkien's works I've never been able to bounce ideas of people with similar passion for his world. I new you people were out there but I've never know anyone as "into" it as me. I appreciate this opportunity to bounce my thoughts off the members of this group.

And thanks specifically to Legate of Amon Lanc for the direct comments to my first post regarding the possibility of a high level of awareness of the Ring as it was lost by Isildur, found and secreted in the underground lake by Smeagol and later discovered by Gandalf/Bilbo--perhaps indirect agents or tools of Ulmo--as claim that Ulmo and possibly other Vala were directly influencing events in that age. Point in case, Manwe may have been telling the Eagles to assist Gandalf etc.

You have all made be think a lot about this. Now I find myself startled to see that it is a most unlikely claim. Let me explain. After the fall of Numenor Valar caused the shape and nature of the world to be changed. No longer could you physically get in a boat, sail straight across the sea and land upon the shores of the Blessed Realm. No, unless you were an elf your ship would sail around the curve world and end up on the other side. Elves could still take the straight path to Aman and return because the Valar forgave them and the Doom of the North was laid to rest. As far as I know, there is no mention of any other races or animals allowed this privilege, including eagles. I would contend that once the world was changed the opportunity for physical manifestation by the Valar was generally lost but the opportunity to affect the minds of persons in Middle Earth may have remained.

Enter the Istari. These were Mair who were sent to aid the peoples of Middle Earth against the power of Sauron. They were charge with the task of moving men, elves and dwarves to acts of courage. This single act of assistance may be the sole effort of aid brought on by the Valar. Basically, the changing of the nature of the world meant that the time of Man had begun. Galadriel and Elrond both knew it but kept their small realms alive and imperishable with the powers of their rings. But an inevitable decline was underway. Any spirits which wanted to last had to bail to the Blessed Realm or eventually fade.

And so now I believe that the Rings of Power were chiefly designed to combat and counter this decline. Destroying the One Ring represented a giving in to that ultimate eventuality. So I agree with the people who say Ulmo was not present in the waterways of the world after the War of Wrath. He did not know such detail as to the whereabouts of the ring.

What I seem to have forgotten was that Tolkien was writing a work of fiction. He needed to set good versus evil in a way which would appeal to the reader. Gandalf was the centerpoint upon which the allies against Sauron found focus. But if Gandalf had not been involved with the finding of the ring, there would not have been a story at all. Sauron and his allies would have overrun Middle Earth without much difficulty whether or not he had the ring or even if Suraman or any of the wise had found it, even Gandalf himself. The outcome is the same. And why bother writhing about that? Everything points to non-involvement of the Valar. Without actual proof of visions or directions in some secret manner, Gandalf was just lucky enough to discover the ring first. But the odds of dealing with it were so slight that the story has great meaning for people because it explores the limits of the hearts of the characters as they develop and find the bravery and courage to accomplish thing which they never would have guessed they could do. Consider the heart darkened Eonwy slaying the Lord of the Nazgul, the minstrel begging leave to sing of Frodo and the Ring of Doom and the description of that song on the company, the final mental battle between Frodo and the Ring at Mount Doom, even the grief of Sam as he returns to the Shire...no I have to say all these things were experienced through the courage and motivations of individuals who played out the story.

I now think it was all done without any contact or direction from the Valar since they themselves changed the world, forever cutting the physical link between Middle Earth and Aman. The Istari were sent to help in the third age because of that break of contact which can be seen as a way to not fully abandon Middle Earth and its peoples to the will of Sauron. Of them only Gandalf returns briefly to Aman after his ordel with the Balrog and he was sent back to finish what he started.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Thanks to you all.

[CSteefel]

But can Ulmo defeat Manwe in single combat??

Anyway, I might not have paid much attention to this thread, except that I just reread Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin in the Unfinished Tales. Here he

sat by a stream that trickled forth near to the door of the cave where he dwelt

and he is suddenly inspired to play his harp and sing an Elven song

...and even as he sang the well at his feet began to boil, and it overflowed, and a rill ran noisily down the rocky hillside before him. And Tuor took this as a sign, and he arose at once and followed after it.

Now we don't see any such direct sign from Ulmo in LOTR, but the suggestion is perhaps still that his power lurks in the waters even far from the sea. Perhaps it is true that the connection between the Valar and Middle Earth faded after the 1st Age, and again after the drowning of Numenor, but as recounted in some of the examples above in which the Eagles suddenly arrive, one has to think that the Valar have not completely cut themselves off from Middle Earth.

[Feliandreka]

Ok, so the Eagles protected Gondolin for hundreds of year and the secret of its location was only betrayed at the end by Hurin and Maglin, persons out of the control of the Eagles.

Does anyone think that Manwe, to whom the Eagles serve, was their air traffic controller, governing their flight patterns and telling them what to do at every turn? No. Absolutely not. The Eagles were very intelligent. The descendants of the same birds who protected Gondolin lived in the Misty mountains in the time of the war of the ring. Can we not suppose they were just as intelligent, though perhaps diminished in stature from the birds of old, and had their own means to follow the events of the world? Who can suppose they were not aware of the Battle of Five armies? All they had to do was look down. They hate goblins as much as men and elves and dwarves. What better time to kill them when they are in the open attacking their own humanoid allies?

The point is, nobody had to tell the Eagles what to do. This idea that Manwe was still ordering them about in the 3rd age does not seem realistic to me. The Eagles governed their own affairs and had their own sources of information. Helping Gandalf was on their adgenda, as was aiding the Heir of Numenor. It is in their very nature, so long as they retain some measure of their former stature, be it size and or inteligence, to oppose Sauron and his minions.

Who can say what Tolkien thought on matters such as this. He probably thought less about it that all of us do. But his writings are poetry and his world like a religion. The faithful have no choice but to speculate. It is really fun!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

The point is, nobody had to tell the Eagles what to do. This idea that Manwe was still ordering them about in the 3rd age does not seem realistic to me. The Eagles governed their own affairs and had their own sources of information. Helping Gandalf was on their adgenda, as was aiding the Heir of Numenor. It is in their very nature, so long as they retain some measure of their former stature, be it size and or inteligence, to oppose Sauron and his minions.

But why was helping Gandalf on their agenda? I have offered suitable context for their miraculous aid. And it was miraculous was it not? Consider: why would a large group of Eagles suddenly appear at precisely the right time, thousands of miles from their home range, and in Mordor of all places? How did the Eagles know precisely where to go? It really doesn't add up -- unless they were sent by some divine agency. One thought might be Radagast, as he sent an Eagle to Orthanc, but that was coincidental, and it was not sent to aid Gandalf; in addition, Radagast is never shown to help the cause in any other sense thereafter, nor was he in council with the Western allies (perhaps deservedly Saruman characterizes him as rather thick). So, then logically they must have been sent by someone else.

Also, where in any text did it say the Eagles were interested in aiding the Heir of Numenor? They could care less for mortal men (except for stealing their sheep). The Eagles only offered assistance to Gandalf. And in the quotes I offered in a previous post, it seems reasonable (lets not use the word realistic, this is after all a fantasy) that Manwë was still able to influence matters in Arda. And it is not out of the realm of possibility, given the fact that he sent the Istari on their mission in the first place. Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But why was helping Gandalf on their agenda? I have offered suitable context for their miraculous aid. And it was miraculous was it not? Consider: why would a large group of Eagles suddenly appear at precisely the right time, thousands of miles from their home range, and in Mordor of all places? How did the Eagles know precisely where to go? It really doesn't add up -- unless they were sent by some divine agency. One thought might be Radagast, as he sent an Eagle to Orthanc, but that was coincidental, and it was not sent to aid Gandalf; in addition, Radagast is never shown to help the cause in any other sense thereafter, nor was he in council with the Western allies (perhaps deservedly Saruman characterizes him as rather thick). So, then logically they must have been sent by someone else.

Also, where in any text did it say the Eagles were interested in aiding the Heir of Numenor? They could care less for mortal men (except for stealing their sheep). The Eagles only offered assistance to Gandalf. And in the quotes I offered in a previous post, it seems reasonable (lets not use the word realistic, this is after all a fantasy) that Manwë was still able to influence matters in Arda. And it is not out of the realm of possibility, given the fact that he sent the Istari on their mission in the first place. Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.

I have to admit, the appearance of the eagles at the Battle of 5 Armies and (more so) at the Morannen, always struck me as Deus ex Machina. This is the only part of Tolkien's writings with which I've ever taken exception.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.

On the matter of who chose to resurrect Gandalf, Tolkien was explicit: it was Eru.

from Letter 156:

In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: 'I was the enemy of Sauron.' He might have added: 'for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth.' But by that he would at the end have meant more than at the beginning. He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until me task is done.' Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' [Valar] whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time.'

Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it clear that "Authority" means Eru, and that "out of thought and time" does not mean back to Valinor, because even though it is no longer a part of the physical planet, it still exists within Time and must, until the End. Earlier in the same letter, he says:

But G. [Gandalf] is not, of course, a human being (Man or Hobbit). THere are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I would venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel' ... an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them. They thus appeared as 'old' sage figures. But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with thise world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the faineance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'. The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plan anyway (he makes mistakes of jugdement). For in his condition, it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment, he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards,' as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.

Between this and the essay on the Istari in UT, I think Tolkien makes it quite clear that though the Valar feel they cannot become directly involved in the matters in ME, they are still certainly concerned and paying attention to what happens there. Even Eru himself is not above a little bit of off-stage meddling, as he is the one who sends Gandalf back after death, and in an enhanced condition better suited to the needs of the job. I don't think that Manwe directly told any of the eagles in ME to go to a specific place at a specific time, but I do think he might have "nudged" them, given them a feeling to head in a certain direction, where they might be at the right place in the right time. He cannot interfere with their choice, but like Ulmo, he could "whisper," and the whispers had a chance of leading to positive results, if the one who hears chooses to listen, and act. Also, I don't quite think it's the same to compare them to the Eagles of the First Age, since there is some question as to whether or not Thorondor was actually an Eagle, or a Maia in the form of an Eagle. A subject for an entirely separate discussion, I'm sure.

Oh, one last thing about the Eagles, from Letter 210 (a lovely discourse on how NOT to adapt LotR as a film):

The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine.' I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness

Deus ex machina, indeed.