Discussion - Who was responsible for the Distruction of Gondolin? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Joy · 09-09-2002, 08:17 PM

This is just an interesting story. I can see several people being responsible, and each seem to carry the weight equally.

I can argue Turin, as he seems to have death and distruction following him everywhere he goes. I can also see it as Turgon's fault, being king and leader of the people. He did some umwise things. His sister, Aredhel, could hold some blame as she left the protection of the city. Also, her husband Eöl, holds some responsiblity. We could also though in Maeglin, their son, who fell in love with his cousin Idril. He betrayed the city when he was captured by Morgoth's spies.
How does Huor and Hurin come into play. Do they hold some responsibility?

With so many people acting in this story, it is hard to lay blame anywhere, yet if this were a court of law, guilt would be placed upon a person. So who would be found guilty?

Eol · 09-09-2002, 08:36 PM

I would go to the source of all troubles in the Silmarillion, Feanor and those Silmaril. If it had not been for those Simarils, there would be no oath or doom of the Noldor.

However it would not be fair to leave Morgoth out of the blame, as he destroyed the two trees and created the arguement between him and Yavanana. Morgoth was also the one who was spreading rumours and lies.

I suppose I will have to change me blame to Morgoth. Eek! I have now realized that it is a succsive chain of people, without one person, another thing would have not happened. The stories rely on each other for each other's doom.

Arie · 09-09-2002, 09:53 PM

...The Dwarves of Khazad Dum for awakening the Balrog...

Orome · 09-10-2002, 06:46 PM

Umm Arie do you even know what Gondolin is?

I would say that Maeglin would be found guilty in a court of law because he directly led and participated in the destruction. Turgon would be found guilty of disobeying a God. Eol and Aredhel could be considered unindited co-consperators. Then you have Morgoth being the hitman, but I would just consider him to be the murder weapon in this case.

thats my two cents

Amarie · 09-11-2002, 09:14 AM

Joy,

How do you figure that each carry the weight equally?
I'll go with Turin for example: you argue that his share of the responsability for Gondonlin's destruction lies in his having bad luck follow him.
I wonder why you name Turin anyhow....?
I am sure that Melkor would have destroyed Gondolin anyhow. We sure know that he wanted to. In fact, take Maeglin out of the picture and I'll bet it still would have happend.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Amarie ]

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Amarie ]

Palan · 09-13-2002, 12:37 PM

Don't blame Turin, he was cursed, and his curse only affected Gondolin when Hurin was released by Morgoth. At Hurin's release he went to the encirling mountains and accidentally revealed the area where Gondolin lay. Then Morgoth was able to capture Maeglin, who was easily turned because of his jealousy of Tuor.

Also, Turgon should have listened to Ulmo!

**lindil** · 09-13-2002, 01:59 PM

Turgon bears the most blame, he directly contravened a Vala who had already warned him of the future.

All other candidates were caught up in Morgoth's curse [Hurin ].

bad parenting - maeglin

disobedient spirit/ willfullness - aredhel

Turgon however takes the prize.

btw - stay tuned to the Rev. Silm forum for a version of 'Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin'.It will incorporate much of the Book Of Lost Tales' Fall of Gondloin and the UT's 'of Tuor'.

A rough draft is near enough that w/in a few weeks hopefully we will have it available in the public Silm forum.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Joy · 09-13-2002, 02:08 PM

Thanks Lindil. I'll be looking forward to that!

Losthuniel · 09-15-2002, 05:16 PM

Personally, this whole debate gives me a headache. There is (imho) no clear victim to place the blame on. And if you carry the thinking far enough, you could place the blame on Eru Illuvatar if you really wanted too. (for creating Morgoth, the elves, etc). If you ask me, hide-under-a-rock lifestyle is HARDLY the most exciting way to live an immortal life.

Eol · 09-15-2002, 05:29 PM

Sweet, that will be cool to see and be in!

09-09-2002, 08:17 PM	#1
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Discussion - Who was responsible for the Distruction of Gondolin? This is just an interesting story. I can see several people being responsible, and each seem to carry the weight equally. I can argue Turin, as he seems to have death and distruction following him everywhere he goes. I can also see it as Turgon's fault, being king and leader of the people. He did some umwise things. His sister, Aredhel, could hold some blame as she left the protection of the city. Also, her husband Eöl, holds some responsiblity. We could also though in Maeglin, their son, who fell in love with his cousin Idril. He betrayed the city when he was captured by Morgoth's spies. How does Huor and Hurin come into play. Do they hold some responsibility? With so many people acting in this story, it is hard to lay blame anywhere, yet if this were a court of law, guilt would be placed upon a person. So who would be found guilty? __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

09-09-2002, 08:36 PM	#2
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	I would go to the source of all troubles in the Silmarillion, Feanor and those Silmaril. If it had not been for those Simarils, there would be no oath or doom of the Noldor. However it would not be fair to leave Morgoth out of the blame, as he destroyed the two trees and created the arguement between him and Yavanana. Morgoth was also the one who was spreading rumours and lies. I suppose I will have to change me blame to Morgoth. Eek! I have now realized that it is a succsive chain of people, without one person, another thing would have not happened. The stories rely on each other for each other's doom. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

09-09-2002, 09:53 PM	#3
Arie Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fangorn Forest Posts: 50	...The Dwarves of Khazad Dum for awakening the Balrog... __________________ "Don't tell me of facts, I never believe facts; you know Canning said nothing was so fallacious as facts, except figures."--Sydney Smith

09-13-2002, 01:59 PM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Turgon bears the most blame, he directly contravened a Vala who had already warned him of the future. All other candidates were caught up in Morgoth's curse [Hurin ]. bad parenting - maeglin disobedient spirit/ willfullness - aredhel Turgon however takes the prize. btw - stay tuned to the Rev. Silm forum for a version of 'Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin'.It will incorporate much of the Book Of Lost Tales' Fall of Gondloin and the UT's 'of Tuor'. A rough draft is near enough that w/in a few weeks hopefully we will have it available in the public Silm forum. [ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

09-13-2002, 02:08 PM	#8
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Thanks Lindil. I'll be looking forward to that! __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

09-10-2002, 06:46 PM	#4
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	Umm Arie do you even know what Gondolin is? I would say that Maeglin would be found guilty in a court of law because he directly led and participated in the destruction. Turgon would be found guilty of disobeying a God. Eol and Aredhel could be considered unindited co-consperators. Then you have Morgoth being the hitman, but I would just consider him to be the murder weapon in this case. thats my two cents

09-11-2002, 09:14 AM	#5
Amarie Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 33	Joy, How do you figure that each carry the weight equally? I'll go with Turin for example: you argue that his share of the responsability for Gondonlin's destruction lies in his having bad luck follow him. I wonder why you name Turin anyhow....? I am sure that Melkor would have destroyed Gondolin anyhow. We sure know that he wanted to. In fact, take Maeglin out of the picture and I'll bet it still would have happend. [ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Amarie ] [ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Amarie ]

09-13-2002, 12:37 PM	#6
Palan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14	Don't blame Turin, he was cursed, and his curse only affected Gondolin when Hurin was released by Morgoth. At Hurin's release he went to the encirling mountains and accidentally revealed the area where Gondolin lay. Then Morgoth was able to capture Maeglin, who was easily turned because of his jealousy of Tuor. Also, Turgon should have listened to Ulmo!

09-15-2002, 05:16 PM	#9
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	Personally, this whole debate gives me a headache. There is (imho) no clear victim to place the blame on. And if you carry the thinking far enough, you could place the blame on Eru Illuvatar if you really wanted too. (for creating Morgoth, the elves, etc). If you ask me, hide-under-a-rock lifestyle is HARDLY the most exciting way to live an immortal life. __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

09-15-2002, 05:29 PM	#10
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	Sweet, that will be cool to see and be in! __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body