Only one lineage?

[Frodo Baggins]

Humour me, I'm curious....

With elves and men being in contact with each other for such a long time, would it be possible that there are more halfelven than the children of Beren and Luthien? I mean, who wouldn't fall in love with an elf? Of course, I'm not sure it'd be that easy for an elf to fall for a puny human but still. A silver penny for your thoughts.

[lindil]

For a delightful tale along these lines see The Fairy Wife

The best Middle-Earth Fan-Fiction I have ever read [excepting the Ruin of Doriath chapter in the Silmarillion that is [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Beren and Luthien wasn't the only union. There was Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen, Imrazor and Mithrellas and a couple of other 'potential' unions, like Andreth and Aegnor and Turin and Finduilas. There may have been some other Humans who fell in love with Elves or vice-versa, but because of their 'fates' they didn't get married/have children. Remeber Gwindor's words to Finduilas:

Go withher love lead's you; yet beware! It is not fitting that the younger children of Illuvutar should wed with the younger...neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom we do not percieve

Of Turin Turumbar; The Published Silmarillion

[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Thalionyulma]

I've never considered humans as puny... er, being one of them.

But perhaps being short-lived (the humans), elves are wary of becoming attracted to them. Something to akin to what Elrond wanted Arwen to avoid (in the movie). Our time is short, and elves have a tendency to love deeply when they do fall in love.

What I'd like to know why is it that its usually the elven maidens who fall in love with human males? I don't recall a full-blooded elven male falling for a female human.

[lindil]

Their too [s]elfish!

Actually, I really do think females [elven or mortal] are naturally more giving and more likely to be swayed by love away from their 'normal' path.

Of course it leaves a trail of disgruntled Elf father in laws....

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, there was. See Morgoth's Ring on Aegnor and Andreth. The Elf Aegnor, who was Finrod's brother, fell in love with Andreth, a wise woman of the house of Beor. However, he declined to marry her, and remained unmarried till his death in battle, believing that their separate fates as immortal and mortal could only lead to grief.

sharon

[mark12_30]

lindil, you just made my day. Thank you, thank you, and bless you. ....(I needed that.)

[Legolas]

There was Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen,

Arwen was not an elf.

[Silmarien]

Techinically Arwen was 1/32 Maiar 6/32 Human and 25/32 Elvish.

[Legolas]

I've calculated it before, but no matter what percent, she was a half-elf. Not an elf.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But Tolkien still deems it fit to mention her marriage with Aragorn as one of the three 'main' unions:

There were three unions of the Eldar and Edain. Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn

LoTR; Appendix A

I know that Arwen is not FULLY Elven, but technically neither was Luthien as she was half Maia and Half Elven.

[Lalaith]

Technically, the children of Elros were also half-eleven, but they were definitely counted as human. So I agree with Inderjit (and also with Tolkien himself. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Lathriel]

There have probably been more such human-elf unnions then we know of. But of course Tolkein couldn't write about all of them. He would still be busy writing if he tried. LOL

[mark12_30]

There's an interesting question.

Elrond half-Elven chose immortality.

Elros-half-Elven chose mortality.

Elrond's children had to also choose: Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir.

But there is every indication that Elros' children did NOT have to choose; indeed, his descendants were cursed and drowned for desiring and striving for immortality instead of a double or triple lifespan that they already had.

So-- once a halfelven chooses mortality, his or her descendants are therefore automatically mortal? As in, Aragorn's son? The book would seem to bear this out as best I recall.

But should Elladan and Elrohir have descendants, they will all have to choose-- until somebody chooses mortality, and then, no more choosing after that.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

There have probably been more such human-elf unnions then we know of.

I REALLY doubt that. Elf-Human marriages are rare and famous, and it is not in their nature to get married. Remember Gwindor's words to Finduialas, though Turin and Findulas really should've got together.

[Iarwain]

I don't quite remember the point where Arwen chose to be mortal, could someone please refresh my memory?

Iarwain

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Arwen's choice was in effect made when her father left Middle-Earth, and she was not aboard, because she had wed a mortal, and so couldn't then leave. Arguably, her brothers might still have been able to chose otherwise, if having departed for Eldamar, say, within the time of an adult human lifespan following the passing of the Ringbearers; lets say Fourth Age 82 was the deadline, so-to-speak. (I for one believe that they did not, having come to relate to the fate of men)

So, when Arwen said she could no longer leave at Aragorn's death, it was true, besides what it would've meant to the sanctity of their marriage.

Clearly, Elros's children had no such choice, because Elros could not and did not go to Elvenhome. So, his choice was also to have his children receive the Gift of Men. The Valar, perhaps, did not wish to deny that Gift to Elrond's children, who would normally have had it, regardless of who their mother would be.

What is significant about Elros, Elrond and his children is that they did have a choice. The default rule, if not known at the time, was that any amount of mortal blood made one mortal. So, Dior, his children and Earendil would have all died a natural death, except for being killed, or given a choice.

And some physical features aside, Imrahil was no more "Elvish" than Faramir, despite having ancestors descended from a semi-Eldarin maiden, who had passed through Belfalas on her way to the West a thousand years earlier.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Another point I wanted to make about the significance of the lineage arising from Elwing and Earendil was that because of the choice for them and their children, something metaphysically Elvish (and even Maian) passed into Men, through them.

Other unions as there may have been in Belfalas or elsewhere were governed by the default rule that I noted above, and the offspring would have at most carried elvish traits only in terms of the biological features of the elven parent.

So, for example, Dior was beautiful and mighty, and perhaps elvish-seeming in many ways for his lifetime, but even if unknown at the time, he was in no way immortal.

[Lalaith]

I really don't think it's as clear-cut regarding Arwen being half-elven, as some of you maintain.
At the first meeting of Aragorn and Arwen, Aragorn calls her Luthien Tinuviel, and Arwen says "I am not Luthien, but perhaps my fate may be like hers" (or something to that effect.)
In other words, up until the time she saw Aragorn, she had assumed her fate was that of the Firstborn.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Was that Arwen flirting, though? Because Luthien Tinuviel's fate eventually was to marry Beren and die the death of a mortal. One could interpret that statement of Arwen's to be an indicator that she thought her fate might be that of the younger children of Illuvatar (which leaves open the possibility of marriage to a mortal-- don't you just picture her fluttering those eyelashes?)

However, what does puzzle me, is that if Arwen expected to die as a mortal, her lifespan is incredible. Arwen was born during the reign of Valandil, Isildur's son, Thirty-Eight generations of the Dunedain before Aragorn. Yet in LOTR she certainly hasn't begun to age as even the longest lived mortal would by then.

So I would guess that Arwen was expecting to be immortal like her parents, but her comment to Aragorn was an indicator that she was willing to forsake that immortality, should she fall in love with a mortal (and thus share Luthien's fate). The initial attraction between those two must have been really strong. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

What is significant about Elros, Elrond and his children is that they did have a choice. The default rule, if not known at the time, was that any amount of mortal blood made one mortal.

My understanding is that, once Elrond and Elros had been given the choice between mortality and immortality, all children of a union between Man and Elf were to be given the same choice. Is that right? And, if it is, should the children of Imrazor and Mithrellas not have been given the same choice?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I am not aware of anything that would suggest that the exception made for Earendil, Elwing, their children, and any children of their child, who chose to be of the Firstborn, ramained anything but an exception.

The exception was made by the Valar, because Earendil & Elwing had been in the Undying Lands, and because of their descent from either Idril, who had lived in the Valinor, or Melian of the race that existed before the World. Certainly, quite special.

[ March 22, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Tar Elenion]

What Arwen was (or was not):
Letter 345:
"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."

When Arwen made her Choice:
Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (App. A):
"It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor,... and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.
He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed."

Who gets to Choose:
HoME 5"
"Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me [Manwe]."

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Much praise and glory to Tar Elenion.

[Lalaith]

Sophia, I've been around long enough to be well aware what Arwen was doing! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I meant that she (Arwen) saw herself as similar to Luthien - one of the immortal Firstborn, falling in love with a mortal.

Thank you Tar Elenion for your quotes.
Things now seem clearer to me. So it would seem that Arwen although half-elven,had elvish rights, and was happy to lay claim those rights until she met Aragorn.
The elves were certainly happy to claim her as their own - she was, after all, called the Evenstar of her People. (that is, the elves)

[The Saucepan Man]

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me [Manwe].

Many thanks for the quote, Tar Elenion, which has cleared up a major misunderstanding of mine. Now that I look back at the Silmarillion, I see that this is the implication of the description in the Akallabeth of the choice given to the sons of Earendil:

The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given the choice of their own destiny.

So, presumably the Valar could have given any of Half-elven descent the same choice, had they judged it appropriate to do so. What I remain unclear about is the basis upon which that judgment was exercised. OK, so Earendil was responsible for bringing the Valar to the aid of ME and this was felt sufficient to allow his sons to be given the choice. And it follows that Elrond's children should be given the choice too. But why should all others of Half-elven descent (including the children of those of Elrond's children who chose to be mortal) be denied the choice?

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

*crinkling forehead* So what has been generally established was that anyone with mortal blood (excepting only Elrond, Elros and the children of Elrond, who were granted a choice) would be counted as mortal.

But (and I apologize for harping so long on Arwen, but she is the only close example we have of such a choice...) how is it that Arwen lives for thirty eight generations of the Dunedain (a ridiculously long lifespan, for the Dunedain didn't exactly die young either) and then decides to be mortal? Am I the only one that this strikes as a little fishy?

[Voralphion]

But should Elladan and Elrohir have descendants, they will all have to choose-- until somebody chooses mortality, and then, no more choosing after that.

No, if they chose to be elven they would eventually go into the west and any descendants there would have to be immortal as mortals weren't allowed in the undying lands.
I also have to agree with others in that Elwing, Earendil and their offspring were only given the choice because of their great deeds. Any other halfelven would be mortal as any mortal blood = mortal.
The choice was only given to the offspring of Elrond not the offspring of Elros because although Elrond was an elf he still had some mortal blood which would have made his decendants mortal, as any mortal blood=mortal. This choice didn't kick in however until Elrond left ME and so his children were considered to be immortal until he left, when they had to decide for themselves. This explains why Arwen had such a long life before she chose mortality.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Elwing, Earendil, Elros, Elrond, and Elrond's children when he went to Aman, had a choice.

No other of the (albeit few, legendary) elf-man unions had a choice.

The reasons an exception was made for Elwing/Earendil/offspring are as follows:
--They set foot in the Undying Lands.
--Elwing was decended from a Maia.
--Earendil's mother was a High Elf who had been born and dwelt in Valinor.

HoME IV & V give one a greater appreciation of Idril and Melian, compared to what is found in the published Silmarillion, and why their decendants warranted favor.

The above are very special and unique factors, and they seem to provide ample grounds for the Valar to have made an exception in that case, if no other.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

*large lightbulb appearing over her head* That helps me immensely with the idea of Arwen's immense and otherwise ridiculous lifespan... Thanks much Voralphion [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[akhtene]

What about such an idea?
Elrond and Elros were not the first children born to elven-human couples. The first one was Dior, but as he was Thingol's Heir and married an elven maiden, his 'elven status' wasn't probably doubted. Besides, this marriage isn't named among the Unions of Eldar and Edain.

The "choice" was first offered to Earendil-Elwig family (perhaps because the number of people of elven-human origin was growing [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )Or, as for their arrival in Valinor they just couldn't be punished, they had to be rewarded, and it set the trend (I mean Elrond's children).

As for The Saucepan Man 's question

why should all others of Half-elven descent (including the children of those of Elrond's children who chose to be mortal) be denied the choice?

it seems the answer is in the quotation you have given. As DEATH is Eru's Gift and it's offered and taken in the family, the gift can't be rejected or taken back (becomes a family heirloom [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] ). Immortality, on the other hand, isn't a gift and so it can be offered, accepted or rejected. (Am I in error? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Don't kill the one already dead!!! after a night here [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] )

[Tar Elenion]

Elrond and Elros were not the first children born to elven-human couples. The first one was Dior, but as he was Thingol's Heir and married an elven maiden, his 'elven status' wasn't probably doubted. Besides, this marriage isn't named among the Unions of Eldar and Edain.

According to the Judgement of Manwe, Dior would be mortal. Dior's children were considered Half-elves. Dior was considered a Half-elf (and was born to two mortals).

[Lalaith]

Immortality, on the other hand, isn't a gift and so it can be offered, accepted or rejected

ahktene, I think that's a really interesting idea.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I believe what Manwe means is that any product of and Elf/Man marriage will inherit the Gift of Men, (ie 'Mortality' the true death and escape from the circles of the world) *BUT* this does not necessarily mean they will also have a merely mortal lifespan. Dior was about forty when he died, old enough to begin showing signs of aging but there is no mention of any such thing. Nor do Earendil or Elwing seem to have aged after attaining physical maturity.

IMO, and this *is* only my opinion, the Half-Elven are 'immortal' in the sense they do not age or die naturally *but* if they should be killed or chose to die from grief or weariness they will share the fate of their Mortal parent and pass beyond the circles of the world.

If true this would explain Arwen and the twins lifespans. According to the judgement of the Valar they were not required to make a final choice of their fate until their father left Middle Earth for Aman. If they wished to be counted among the Eldar they would go with him, if they remained behind they would be accounted among Men. Which means the twins have chosen to become mortal too as they do not accompany their father.

Note also that Arwen doesn't die of old age but of grief just as her foremother Luthien did the first time, there is no indication she ages at all.

I don't quite understand why everybody says Elros' children were not offered the choice too, where does it say that? What does seem clear from the genealogical chart in Unifinished Tales is that all three of Elros' sons chose to be counted as Men for they married and left descendants. His only daughter Tindomiel on the other hand left no descendants nor does she have a date of death - could that mean she chose to be of Elf kind and sailed West? Possibly Elros' children were also given a time limit to make their final choice, perhaps at the time of their father's death?

However it seems clear that theirs is the last generation of Half-Elven to be given the choice. Their children are Men, but still far longer lived than others of their kind. Which means Eldarion will also be accounted a Man from his birth but will have a longer than normal lifespan, even for a Dunedain.

As for the question of whether there are other Half-Elven, Mithrellas and Imrazor suggest there may be a few, but probably not many and mostly of relatively humble Sylvan ancestry.

[Tar Elenion]

I believe what Manwe means is that any product of and Elf/Man marriage will inherit the Gift of Men, (ie 'Mortality' the true death and escape from the circles of the world) *BUT* this does not necessarily mean they will also have a merely mortal lifespan. Dior was about forty when he died, old enough to begin showing signs of aging but there is no mention of any such thing.

There is very little mention of Dior.

Nor do Earendil or Elwing seem to have aged after attaining physical maturity.
IMO, and this *is* only my opinion, the Half-Elven are 'immortal' in the sense they do not age or die naturally *but* if they should be killed or chose to die from grief or weariness they will share the fate of their Mortal parent and pass beyond the circles of the world.

In UT, Line of Elros, endnote 1. it is said:
"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the "seeking else-whither," as the Eldar called it, the "weariness" or desire to depart from the world."
This is an editorial summary.

If true this would explain Arwen and the twins lifespans. According to the judgement of the Valar they were not required to make a final choice of their fate until their father left Middle Earth for Aman. If they wished to be counted among the Eldar they would go with him, if they remained behind they would be accounted among Men. Which means the twins have chosen to become mortal too as they do not accompany their father.

What explans there lifespans is that Manwe granted them 'other doom', they were allowed to live with the "youth of the Eldar" until the time came for them to make their choices.

Note also that Arwen doesn't die of old age but of grief just as her foremother Luthien did the first time, there is no indication she ages at all.

Perhaps because she was not "differently endowed in the physical potential of life" like Elros and Elrond. As it says in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, LotR App. A:
"Then going to the House of the Kings in the Silent Street, Aragorn laid him down on the long bed that had been prepared for him. There he said farewell to Eldarion, and gave into his hands the winged crown of Gondor and the sceptre of Arnor, and then all left him save Arwen, and she stood alone by his bed. And for all her wisdom and lineage she could not forbear to plead with him to stay yet for a while. She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her."
If like Elros she was not differently endowed, then she could have expected to live a couple more centuries.

I don't quite understand why everybody says Elros' children were not offered the choice too, where does it say that? What does seem clear from the genealogical chart in Unifinished Tales is that all three of Elros' sons chose to be counted as Men for they married and left descendants. His only daughter Tindomiel on the other hand left no descendants nor does she have a date of death - could that mean she chose to be of Elf kind and sailed West? Possibly Elros' children were also given a time limit to make their final choice, perhaps at the time of their father's death?

However it seems clear that theirs is the last generation of Half-Elven to be given the choice. Their children are Men, but still far longer lived than others of their kind. Which means Eldarion will also be accounted a Man from his birth but will have a longer than normal lifespan, even for a Dunedain.

Letter 154:
"The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity..."

None of Elros descendants had a choice.

[ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Legolas]

I don't quite understand why everybody says Elros' children were not offered the choice too, where does it say that? What does seem clear from the genealogical chart in Unifinished Tales is that all three of Elros' sons chose to be counted as Men for they married and left descendants. His only daughter Tindomiel on the other hand left no descendants nor does she have a date of death - could that mean she chose to be of Elf kind and sailed West? Possibly Elros' children were also given a time limit to make their final choice, perhaps at the time of their father's death?

Additionally, Tolkien said Elrond's children received the choice because of the renewed Elvish strain from their mother:

Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

That's from Letter 153, by the way, not 154, as I presume Tar Elenion made a typo.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Now that just doesn't make sense. Why should a reinfusion of Elvish blood make it necessary for Elrond's children to choose? Why shouldn't it just confirm their Elvish identity as their cousin's Mortal blood on their mother's side supposedly confirmed theirs as Men?

Thank you for reminding me of the 'same potential for life' quote, IMO it furnishes confirmation for my theory by indicating that the Half-Elven inherit the immortality of their Elven parent but the Gift of Men from their Mortal. I wonder, is Elrond completely free of the 'seeking elsewhere' trait? How content is he going to be in changeless Aman, how content are Elwing and Earendil?

One can't help but notice that the majority of the Half-Elven choose Mortality; Elros, his children, Arwen and the Twins - do they maybe know something we don't? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Legolas]

Now that just doesn't make sense. Why should a reinfusion of Elvish blood make it necessary for Elrond's children to choose? Why shouldn't it just confirm their Elvish identity as their cousin's Mortal blood on their mother's side supposedly confirmed theirs as Men?

Elros' children were mortal because his parents fundamentally were. Elros was half-elven. Half-elves (or anyone with any mortal blood) were considered mortal (prior to Earendil's family). His wife was mortal.

Half-elf (fundamentally + human = mortals.

Elrond chose immortality, but his blood was fundamentally that of a half-elf - half-elves were naturally mortal unless Eru changed that. Celebrian was an elf.

Half-elf + elf = more half-elves in Earendil's family who get the choice

Makes sense.

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Tar Elenion]

Now that just doesn't make sense. Why should a reinfusion of Elvish blood make it necessary for Elrond's children to choose? Why shouldn't it just confirm their Elvish identity as their cousin's Mortal blood on their mother's side supposedly confirmed theirs as Men?

Did the 'reinfusion' make it "necessary" for them to choose? Or was that simply a reason Manwe used to grant them 'other doom'.

Thank you for reminding me of the 'same potential for life' quote, IMO it furnishes confirmation for my theory by indicating that the Half-Elven inherit the immortality of their Elven parent but the Gift of Men from their Mortal. I wonder, is Elrond completely free of the 'seeking elsewhere' trait? How content is he going to be in changeless Aman, how content are Elwing and Earendil?

They inherit a 'potential', but they are not 'immortal' (and remember the essential difference between Elves and Men is not how long they live, but what happens after they die) unless granted that by Manwe. As Manwe said: "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...". All Half-elves are by nature mortal.

One can't help but notice that the majority of the Half-Elven choose Mortality; Elros, his children, Arwen and the Twins - do they maybe know something we don't?

The Half-elves who were granted a Choice: Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.
Earendil, Elwing and Elrond all chose 'immortality'.
Elros and Arwen Chose 'Mortality'.
We do not know what Elladan and Elrohir Chose, the most specific statement JRRT wrote about them is: "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
Letter 153
Elros' children did not Choose mortality. Elros' children had no Choice. They were 'mortal':
"Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity..."
Letter 153
JRRT is quite specific.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"...". All Half-elves are by nature mortal."

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Long lived perhaps, able to choose their time of death maybe, but still subject to Men's 'weariness of the world' and doomed to pass beyond the circles of the world.

In the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' it is made clear that Arwen's continued immortality is contigent on accompanying her father when he leaves Middle Earth for Aman, if she chooses to remain she becomes Mortal. And Aragorn, struck by a forseeing, tells Elrond that the time of his abiding grows short and 'the choice must soon be laid on your children' strongly implying that the same limitation applies to the twins.

Later, when Aragorn suggests Arwen might change her mind and follow her father, she answers 'that choice is long over'. Now either we must assume the twins are, for some unknown reason, bound by different rules than their sister or that they too have chosen Mortality by remaining behind in Middle Earth.

The HoME shows clearly that the Professor was constantly revising and rethinking his opus but it is my understanding he felt bound by anything that had actually appeared in print - even if he got a better idea later.

And Legolas, I must disagree, Elros's kids were every bit as much descendants of Earendil as Elrond's brood, and Manwe says *any Mortal blood at all* whether greater or lesser makes the carrier Mortal, but by special grace Earendil's sons are allowed to choose which kindred they will be counted among. Thus either *all* Earendil and Elwing's grandchildren should have been automatically mortal, (as per the usual rule) *OR* all should have been allowed their choice. The exact percentage of Elven and Mortal blood shouldn't make any difference at all.

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]