Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
07-03-2023, 06:54 AM | #1 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 10
|
The Shadow of the Past - Gandalf's knowledge
Hello everyone!
So after rereading chapter II of book I, I stumbled upon something. Gandalf said he knew from the beginning Bilbo has a Great Ring (as plain it was). This obviously isn't corresponding with the favourite theory of lesser ring. No, Gandalf knew from the start he is dealing with Great Ring. But later in that chapter, he says all Great Rings are accounted for. This "problem" just bothers me more than it should. If dealing with a Great Ring, shouldn't Gandalf do something about it? And not wait 60+ years. Why didn't he ask Elrond for advice? I understand that Bilbo seemed fine with the ring and knowing its location was probably for the best, but still - by the process of elimination, he could have started to suspect Bilbo has the One much sooner, no? And why was Gandalf concerned by Bilbo not aging? He knew he has a Great Ring - and these rings prolongs life. It just doesn't make sense to me. I tried to ask on reddit, but nobody answered without the "lesser ring theory". Any help? If someone could explain to me this, I would really appreciate this. Thanks! |
07-03-2023, 07:19 AM | #2 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,401
|
Hi JeyEn! Welcome to the Downs!
Personally, this bothered me as well - Gandalf's insistence that he always knew, coupled with him taking no action, and also clearly coupled with actions which indicate doubt (why the trip to Minas Tirith and Isengard?). I'm sure people with better textual memory will come up with a more satisfying canonical explanation, but here is how I've been reconciling it in my head. Gandalf is boasting slightly, turning a fleeting suspicion into certainty with the sureness of hindsight. A character flaw, if you will. Perhaps more accurately was to say that a thought would enter his mind that "something is up with this ring". Perhaps even "This ring has the markings of a Great Ring". Even perhaps "What if it is THE Ring?". But then inevitably followed by "This is preposterous. There must have been a flaw in my reasoning, something I overlooked. No way this is actually true". Gandalf, humble as he is, still occasionally likes to make grand statements about himself, and likes the occasional bit of pomp. So in hindsight, of course he saw from the very beginning that the signs all pointed this way! But in reality, he was probably plagued by a lot of doubts and was hesitant to make a rash move that would spook the "real" culprit and alert the foe, hesitant to dive for a penny and lose a pound in the process. Addendum: You are by far not the only one to wonder about this, and in fact this very thought has actually made it into a fanfic book. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is the creation of an author who combines his love for various fantasy and sci-fi classics with brilliant logic. The book can mainly be summarized by asking the question, What if things in Harry Potter had an actual logical explanation?. It's great fun, very interesting story and plot twists and fantastic humour. But he also very lovingly references some favourites along the way, and here is the pertinent excerpt, a conversation between Harry and Dumbledore: Quote:
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-03-2023 at 07:34 AM. |
|
07-03-2023, 09:44 AM | #3 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,909
|
I don't think we should be too harsh on Gandalf. This is what he says to Frodo about his knowledge:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Gandalf didn't go "hey, Bilbo's got a Great Ring that can only possibly be the One, I'll leave it with him and Frodo for seventy-odd years"; he went "one of the Great Rings has emerged; Saruman's ring-lore [that I remember at this moment] tells me it's not the One, so the only danger is to Bilbo, who frankly seems fine; Hobbits are a resilient lot." As soon as he remembered that only the One had no stone, he rode directly from the edges of Mordor to Gondor, to check the archives, because he knew that if the One had somehow, impossibly, survived after it was supposed to be destroyed or lost three thousand years earlier, it could be either Middle-earth's destruction or its salvation. He then headed directly back to the Shire, only diverting when Aragorn sent word that he'd found the key witness in the case - Gollum, who then confirmed how the Ring had survived. hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 07-05-2023 at 02:06 AM. Reason: Splicing in Frodo quotes for reference. |
|||
07-03-2023, 02:08 PM | #4 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,381
|
Welcome to the Barrow-Downs, JeyEn! An excellent first post!
I believe that Huinesoron, has this issue analyzed correctly. It is troubling that Gandalf believed that Bilbo's find was "a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first." I will add to Huisesoron's post by noting that Gandalf, at best, only believed that Sauron had either gathered the Seven or that they had been destroyed. So, having overlooked that only the One was unadorned and without a stone, he may have believed that it was one of the Seven. And he had been assured by Saruman that the One was lost permanently; that it had found its way to the sea. Even so, he concedes that it is perilous for a mortal to possess any of the Rings of Power. I could go out on a limb and theorize that there was a distinction between, first, the lesser rings, second, the Great Rings, and third, Rings of Power, but this would be a stretch. Gandalf states "But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous." This seems to clearly mean that there is no distinction between the Great Rings and the Rings of Power.
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
07-03-2023, 02:16 PM | #5 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 10
|
So far we agreed on that Gandalf made almost perilous mistake, right? And why didn't go to Elrond for advice? I think, after all, he wanted nobody to know - words spread around quickly and maybe Sauron could hear that some hobbit in Shire has one of the Great Rings. What do you think, Huinesoron and Mithadan?
By the way, thank for you replies! It made everything much clearer. Good to be with people who actually read the book and had a thought about the same as I did! |
07-04-2023, 05:46 AM | #6 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,909
|
Quote:
Quote:
And I think that final passage shows why he didn't move the thing somewhere safe: any of the Wise who were around the Ring for significant periods would inevitably be corrupted and take it. Galadriel spent about five minutes with it and nearly went full Maleficent; Saruman would have had it the instant he next visited Rivendell. As long as Sauron didn't find it (and it's not like he could sense it at long distances, or feel it being used or anything), the Ring was safe in the Shire. My guess is that he was waiting for Aragorn to grow up. Arathorn was dead by the time the Ring came to light, and if there was to be war, an experienced adult Heir would be needed to bring Gondor into the fight. The hunt for Gollum thus becomes Aragorn's final exam: as a ranger, as a hero, as a diplomat, and as someone trusted with the greatest secret of the Third Age, the location of the One Ring. hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
||
07-04-2023, 06:04 AM | #7 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
|
Quote:
I wonder how much of this whole problem is because the Professor himself had already written a sizeable chunk of the story before he figured out that Bilbo's ring was the One, and had to retcon parts of the written narrative to make it fit. That would be an etic reason vs the emic ones given so far.
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
|
07-04-2023, 07:09 AM | #8 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 10
|
Quote:
We must not forget the power of Saruman's voice. Gandalf himself admitted he was lured by his voice. While maybe he had a doubt or felt a shadow, he just "knew" it isn't the One, because of Saruman. And the Silmarillion quote doesn't say anything about Gandalf lying, if I read that correctly. He couldn't be sure if it isn't one of the Nine or Seven, how could he know that Sauron has them? (He probably learned that while investigatin after Bilbo's birthday). Besides that, god knows how many versions of that part in Silmarillion were. I would go what is written in LOTR, since Silmarillion, while being canon, was edited by Christopher. What do you think, Huinesoron? |
|
07-04-2023, 02:26 PM | #9 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,381
|
This topic is interesting and may not have been discussed here before. I looked at the Chapter by Chapter thread for The Shadow of the Past and though that discussion ran for three pages, this specific question was not mentioned.
Let's break this down a bit. Gandalf tells Frodo that it was apparent to him from the first that Bilbo's ring was one of the Great Rings. As Huinesoron mentions, Gandalf discussed with Elrond, around TA 2851, ninety years before Bilbo finds the Ring, that all of the Great Rings had been accounted for except for the One. If Bilbo's ring was clearly a Great Ring and Gandalf knew this immediately, he should have surmised that the One had been found. Shouldn't action have been taken then? Let's look at the possible explanations for this. 1. Gandalf did not know for certain that Sauron had gathered all of the Seven that had survived AND that the remainder had been destroyed. Gandalf actually believed that Bilbo's ring may have been one of the Seven. This requires that he have forgotten or not heard Saruman explaining that only the One had no stone (and when did this conversation take place?). However, Gandalf states his belief that it is perilous for a mortal to possess any of the Great Rings. Why would he not intervene even if he thought it was one of the Seven? 2. Gandalf did not immediately believe that Bilbo's ring was one of the Great Rings and came to suspect this later, perhaps during the Long Expected Party. In other words, Gandalf lied (or exaggerated), and initially thought the ring was one of the "lesser rings" (but he says he feels even those "essays in the craft" are dangerous for mortals). 3. JRRT made a minor error of continuity that cannot clearly be reconciled. Thoughts? Other options?
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
07-04-2023, 03:18 PM | #10 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 10
|
Well in Silmarillion, he said "for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three. " So 4 rings were considered lost. And Gandalf could have thought that Nine and other three were maybe redistributed. What is interesting - in early draft of this chapter, Gandalf says that he firstly believed Bilbo has a lesser ring. But for some reason, Tolkien did not write that. So I doubt it was a editing mistake.
Here is the quote from early draft (I don't know how to put it in the nice box): 'Yes, I let him,' said Gandalf. 'But at first of course I did not even imagine that it was [one] of the nineteen Rings of Power: I thought he had got nothing more dangerous than one of the lesser magic rings that were once more common - and were used (as their maker intended) chiefly by minor rogues and villains, for mean wickednesses. I was not frightened of Bilbo being affected by their power. But when I began to suspect that the matter was more serious than that, I told him as much as my suspicions warranted. He knew that it came in the long run from the Necromancer. But you must remember there was the Ring itself to reckon with. Even Bilbo could not wholly escape the power of the Ruling Ring. He developed - a sentiment. He would keep it as a memento. Frankly - he became rather proud of his Great Adventure, and used to look at the Ring now and again (and oftener as time went on) to warm his memory: it made him feel rather heroic, though he never lost his power of laughing at the feeling. 'But in the end it got a hold of him in that way. He knew eventually that it was giving him "long life", and thinning him. He grew weary of it - "I can't abide it any longer", he said - but to get rid of it was not so easy. He found it hard to bring himself to it. If you think for a moment: it is not really very easy to get rid of the Ring once you have got it.' |
|
|