Isildur

[Boromir88]

Quoting Huinesoron from the Amazon series movie thread, because it sparked some of my thoughts about Isildur (in the books)L

Originally Posted by Huey

Isildur is weak.

This direct statement stirred me to think about Isildur's character, because I wouldn't have described him as a weak character before. I would describe when he claims the Ring after Sauron is defeated (by Gil-galad and Elendil), that is a moment of weakness, similar to how Boromir has a moment of weakness, but it never necessarily stood out to think Isildur is weak.

As Gandalf says about Boromir's test:

"It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men." (The White Rider)

Boromir has a moment of weakness, as does Isildur. And Tolkien did make it a point that in the "trial" Faramir was the stronger brother, for refusing the lure of the Ring. However, I wouldn't take their moments of weakness as far as Peter Jackson does in the movies, when grumpy Elrond proclaims "Men are weak." There aren't many Faramirs or Aragorns.

Perhaps what points most in favor of Huey's statement is that Gil-galad and Elendil defeated Sauron (according to the Silmarillion):

But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron was also thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the ruling ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. ~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Certainly in the Silmarillion it seems like it was Gil-galad and Elendil who wrestled and defeated Sauron, but Isildur proclaims to Elrond and Cirdan:

"Was it not I who dealt the Enemy his death blow?"~ibid

Elrond says at the council that Isildur stood alone with Elendil in that combat with Sauron, and with Gil-galad stood him and Cirdan. So only three know the truth, and of those three, the mortal is dead.

Anyway, I have a gripe to pick with Huey, because it was always easier just to cast aside Peter Jackson's portrayal of Isildur more out of convenience, as a "weakness" that Aragorn had to overcome. As Aragorn says in the films, the same blood flows through him; "the same weakness." But now he's got me thinking that perhaps it wasn't a complete fabrication by Jackson to fit his narrative, that perhaps Isildur was weak.

[Inziladun]

I haven't been back to the series thread, but I would just question whether anyone could have been capable of destroying the One at the moment when it could actually have been done.

The Ring had just left Sauron's hand; its power was at its zenith for that reason, and also because it was actually in Mordor.
Humble Frodo the Hobbit couldn't do it when he had the chance.

And it we're laying blame on Isildur for not destroying the One, why not look at the keepers of the Three? They knew the peril of keeping (not to mention using) their rings, yet took no steps to do away when Vilya, Nenya, and Narya.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Ring had just left Sauron's hand; its power was at its zenith for that reason, and also because it was actually in Mordor.
Humble Frodo the Hobbit couldn't do it when he had the chance.

And it we're laying blame on Isildur for not destroying the One, why not look at the keepers of the Three? They knew the peril of keeping (not to mention using) their rings, yet took no steps to do away when Vilya, Nenya, and Narya.

That's always been my impressions of Isildur, as well, that is he is meant to play the part of a heroic figure, and making his "Fall" in claiming the Ring that much more meaningful.

What I mean is, you take a look at the snippet of him sneaking into Armenelos and saving the fruit of Nimloth, it shows to me Isildur is actually a strong (in terms of his will) character. He's listening to his grandfather tell the story of the White Tree to his father and brothers. Isildur decided on his own to sneak in and save it, he's not told to do this task by anyone else. Its his own will that makes this decision, and his success is said to win him "renown."

Fast forward to him claiming the Ring. I don't think proves Isildur was a weak character, quite the opposite. His "Fall" in succumbing to Sauron's weapon, actually has more impact on the story in Lord of the Rings. He is renowned for a heroic deed in Numenor, and even Isildur was corrupted by the power of Sauron. It only proves why Boromir's and Denethor's positions to want to use the Ring are complete folly. Isildur's bane isn't an orc arrow, it is the Ring, that even brought down the renowned hero who saved the White Tree!

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I would just question whether anyone could have been capable of destroying the One at the moment when it could actually have been done.

Elrond and Cirdan should have pushed him in. They would then not be dealing with the lure of the Ring themselves, they would have been killing Isildur in a manner that conveniently would have taken care of three thousand years worth of problems.

[Huinesoron]

Isildur is weak, and that's what makes him interesting.

(Oh yes, I'm doubling down.)

How you see Isildur depends on how much of his story you accept. If you just take what's in LotR, then he's a pretty straight archetype: he's a noble warrior-king who is immediately corrupted by the One Ring. For LotR, that's all he needs to be - an explanation for why the Ring still exists, and a warning/foreshadowing of Frodo's similar failure at the last.

But then you go back to the Silmarillion, and you learn about his rescue of the fruit of the White Tree, and his grievous injury. You see that he was a very strong character, a brave leader of men and commander of ships. You come to see his failure as a tragedy, a strong hero broken by what must be nigh-unbeatable power.

But there's more to him than that. If you go back to the incomplete Lost Road, you find Elendil's conversations with his son, who at this point goes by the name of Herendil. And Herendil... supports the king. He's proud of Numenor's might. He warns his father about the dangers of being an Elf-friend. He voices a pro-Sauron viewpoint!

If you accept that Herendil is a proto-Isildur (which I think is inarguable), and that Tolkien would have retained these aspects of him (which I do), then... he's weak. He's drawn astray by the lure of power and might.

But he becomes strong. Sneaking into the palace and retrieving the fruit is an act of strength, because it's not about power. It's about saving something that is beautiful and sacred, but in practical terms useless. It's not just Isildur being heroic - it's the former Herendil getting over his focus on physical power and accepting that the 'useless' can actually be more important.

And that casts his failure at Orodruin in a whole new light. He's not just a hero who fell - he's a man who did overcome his baser instincts... but was consumed by them again at the last. It means that the temptation offered by the Ring was precisely the thing he'd thought he had rejected, but found that in its purest form he couldn't.

And (lest you think I'm over-interpreting) this isn't just Isildur's failing - it is the failing of Numenorean men across their whole history.

Originally Posted by Erendis, Queen of Numenor

Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world beside their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them.

hS

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Isildur is weak, and that's what makes him interesting.

(Oh yes, I'm doubling down.)

And that's alright, because perhaps the best thing (imo) about these stories is you can come to different conclusions about Isildur, or Frodo, or Denethor, and many other characters yet both conclusions would be true.

But then you go back to the Silmarillion, and you learn about his rescue of the fruit of the White Tree, and his grievous injury. You see that he was a very strong character, a brave leader of men and commander of ships. You come to see his failure as a tragedy, a strong hero broken by what must be nigh-unbeatable power.

I rather think there is a comparison to be made between Boromir's story and Isildur's. There are some similarities, and some differences.

I would argue that The Council of Elrond Boromir is a very weak character. He is propped up as a renowned general and hero of Gondor during his time. Named after another warrior, the Ruling Steward Boromir. He is believed to be the stronger brother, but in "the test" Tolkien says that Farmir proved to be the stronger brother:

It did not seem possible to Faramir that anyone in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower, and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion

The Council of Elrond up to the Breaking of the Fellowship Boromir seems, frankly put, undeserving and a weak character. Sure he provides some much needed muscle to get the Fellowship through Caradhras, but he never sets eyes on the Ring, yet is still corrupted by it. Isildur took the Ring from Sauron's hand, and was a Ring-bearer.

Yet, in the end Boromir becomes a stronger character. Boromir's story ends "heroically." He admits to Aragorn he attempted to take the ring, takes personal responsibility ("I am sorry. I have paid."), and dies obeying a command from his "King;" to find the hobbits and protect them.

"Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and lord of men. Galadriel told me he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake."~The White Rider

I'm not convinced that I should factor in The Lost Road's "Herendil." I agree that this is certainly a proto-Isildur, but Tolkien tinkered with his characters and their stories frequently. The Treason of Isengard, Boromir is a traitor and rival to Aragorn in war. This Boromir peaks his head through in Faramir's comment that he's not surprised Boromir would treat Aragorn with honor, "yet they had not become rivals in war." The Lord of the Rings Boromir does not become Aragorn's rival. Having said that, I wouldn't go as far to say it's wrong for you to factor in the character Herendil as a proto-Isildur.

Back to Boromir for a moment...he accepts personal responsibility for his weakness, seeing the fate Faramir sees (if Faramir were to claim the Ring, but Faramir rejects that power). Boromir sees it too, not in time to save his life, but in time to save his honor and "escape in the end."

Isildur never sees this fate, and that is perhaps where I agree he is weak. He begins a strong and renowned hero for his deed in Numenor, but by succumbing to the Ring he dies in a dishonorable way, cowardly attempting to flee an ambush. Unfortunately for his sake, there are no young hobbits around to defend, and his "renowned deed" happened long ago.

[Boromir88]

Double-posting for another thought has jumped into my mind, that in my opinion points to a character flaw (or weakness, if you prefer) within Isildur.

It's not that he refuses the council to destroy the Ring that makes him weak. I agree with Inzil that it seems hypocritical for someone like Elrond to tell Isildur to destroy the Ring, when he (and the other Elven ring-bearers) are unwilling to destroy theirs. One could argue though it's slightly different, because Sauron never corrupted the Elven rings and their bearers didn't use them to dominate/bulldoze the will of others. Still I've always believed the Elven Rings should not have been forged because where Galadriel was not fooled by Sauron, Celebrimbor was. Also I doubt it could have been known of Sauron's return, the counsel to Isildur seems to be based on the ground "everything that was made by Sauron should be unmade."

The weakness though, is he claims it as weregild (according to Elrond's account at his council):

"This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother," he said; and therefor whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it. But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur's Bane. Yet death maybe was better than what else might have befallen him."~The Council of Elrond

Claiming it as weregild, and taking it "to treasure it" is where Isildur errs and exposes his weakness. Weregild was in ancient law a method of compensation paid to an injured party (in the case of the death of a family member). Now Isildur takes the most valuable item as Sauron posesses, as payment for the death of his father and brother, which you could argue was a valid, and legal claim. However, to me it's a sign of Isildur's weakness, he's basically accepting payment (and payment in gold!) for his father and brother being killed in battle. In my opinion, by making the claim of weregild he placed a value on his father's and brother's life, when he took the payment and "treasured it," it's like he's accepting the injuries Sauron caused his family are paid back.