Why didn't they use the same pass? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Arwen Imladris · 09-04-2002, 03:05 PM

Why didn't the fellowship use the same pass as the dwarves and bilbo did? It was far away from isengard. So long as Gandalf did get a giant to block up that hole, it should have been O.K. and not really out of the way either. So why did they choos Caradhras?

Manwe Sulimo · 09-04-2002, 05:37 PM

I always wondered about that, too.

When you think about it, it would have been much easier, passing over the Misty Mountains in a protected (by Rivendell) area, traveling through the Beronings' lands, down Anduin (the water keeping the Nazgûl at bay), to Lothlórien, then continuing to Mordor. They would have avoided Moria (and the Balrog), Isengard, and been protected from the Nazgûl at (almost) every turn.

The only things I can find wrong with that path are these:

1) Mount Gundabad: The "capital" of the Misty Mountain orcs, anybody trying to pass through would have probably run into an orc or two (thousand)....remember, in The Hobbit, Thorin & Co. were captured and almost killed.
2) Gladden Fields: Both Sauron and Saruman had been keeping an eye (or the Eye) on the Gladden Fields, where the Ring passed out of knowledge 3000 years before.
3) Dol Guldur: Passing down Anduin or west Mirkwood would have brought the Fellowship too close to Dol Guldur, and all them trolls, orcs, and Nazgûl (Anduin couldn't protect them, then) would certainly capture or kill all the Fellowship, even if there was support from Lórien.

And also remember: any trip that way would result in the destruction of Helm's Deep, Edoras, and (probably) Minas Tirith.

Arwen Imladris · 09-05-2002, 02:15 PM

Quote:

And also remember: any trip that way would result in the destruction of Helm's Deep, Edoras, and (probably) Minas Tirith.

Why do you say that?

Quote:

1) Mount Gundabad: The "capital" of the Misty Mountain orcs, anybody trying to pass through would have probably run into an orc or two (thousand)....remember, in The Hobbit, Thorin & Co. were captured and almost killed.

Ya, but there were also orcs in Moria, they servived that. Also, if the dwarves and Bilbo managed to escape, wouldn't the fellowship be MORE likly to get through?

Morgul Queen · 09-05-2002, 02:36 PM

well the only reason the fellowship escaped from moria was because the orcs got scared away by the balrog (and im hoping there isn't a balrog in the other pass also the orcs would be on their guard because thorin & co ngot away right under their noses so it would have been a lot harder for the fellowship to get away.
p.s. did anyone note thet in the hobbit when bilbo meets up with thorin & co after escaping gandalf says: they will double their guard after that!!
so with all this added up maybe moria was safer after all.

p.p.s. everyone who agrees raise your hand!!!
*raises hand*

Manwe Sulimo · 09-05-2002, 06:13 PM

Why do I say that going down Anduin would've resulted in the detruction of the Human Kingdoms? A number of reasons:

1) The time taken going first east, then south, would've spent more time than Rohan had. The Uruk-hai would've attacked and destroyed Helm's Deep (without Merry and Pippin the Huorns never would've been drawn/sent to Helm's Deep), the Ents never would've attacked Isengard, and after that, Edoras goes.
2) Gandalf would not have been killed, meaning that Gandalf the Grey would've remained. He would not have had the power to defeat Saruman (by breaking his staff, for the reason that he wouldn't have been able to enter Isengard [see reason 1]). Also, he would not have been able to organize the defense of Minas Tirith as effectively, and would not have been able to face down the Lord of the Nazzies at the Gate.
3) The Balrog never would've been killed, giving Sauron/Saruman an effective weapon against Lórien and Rivendell.
4) Éowyn would not have survived/been made a slave, meaning that the Witch-king would not have been killed.
5) The Rohirrim would not have been able to help Minas Tirith.
6) Aragorn would not have been able to travel the [BUM BUM BUM] Paths of the Dead ("Neigh") and, consequently, would not have been able to liberate Pelargir.

The story with Gundabad:

The Elrond was sure that the pass near there was infested by orcs/goblins/troll. They were not sure about Moria, and besides, they were planning on using Caradhras.

O'Boile · 09-06-2002, 07:32 AM

Quote:

well the only reason the fellowship escaped from moria was because the orcs got scared away by the balrog

This is the book forum, not the movie forum, so don't use the movie as a reference. The orcs did not run away in the real story.

I vaugely remember Gandalf saying that it would take to long to go that route. I also seem to remember him saying it would be too close to Dol Gulder. Also, it was winter time, so those passes (which were further north) could have been even worse that Carahdras (SP?).

lathspell · 09-06-2002, 08:21 AM

1st reason: I didn't find a descent giant to block the road up.
2nd: it would take more time and speed was sth very hard needed.
3rd: I always wanted to take the route through moria, for it would take us out of sight and is the most unlikely rout to take. but Aragorn insisted in trying Caradhras first.
5th: Certainly the High Pass was watched for it was near Gundabad and would be the easiest way to take from Rivendell.

This is as I see things. I was the safest, speediest and most unlikely way to take, and that is just what we wanted. Yet it prooved disastrous to me and almost to the whole fellowship. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

greetings,
lathspell

Manwe Sulimo · 09-06-2002, 12:51 PM

What happened to reason 4?

[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 09-06-2002, 03:02 PM

Would it really have taken them longer to go the same way as the dwarves? On the map it looked about the same lenghth.

Quote:

p.s. did anyone note thet in the hobbit when bilbo meets up with thorin & co after escaping gandalf says: they will double their guard after that!! so with all this added up maybe moria was safer after all.

Yes, but that was 50 years ago, they might have been a little more relaxed by now.

Quote:

What happened to reason 4?

Yes, we can all count here! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] oh well, I wouldn't worry about. We all know what lathspell ment.

09-04-2002, 03:05 PM	#1
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Why didn't they use the same pass? Why didn't the fellowship use the same pass as the dwarves and bilbo did? It was far away from isengard. So long as Gandalf did get a giant to block up that hole, it should have been O.K. and not really out of the way either. So why did they choos Caradhras? __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

09-04-2002, 05:37 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	I always wondered about that, too. When you think about it, it would have been much easier, passing over the Misty Mountains in a protected (by Rivendell) area, traveling through the Beronings' lands, down Anduin (the water keeping the Nazgûl at bay), to Lothlórien, then continuing to Mordor. They would have avoided Moria (and the Balrog), Isengard, and been protected from the Nazgûl at (almost) every turn. The only things I can find wrong with that path are these: 1) Mount Gundabad: The "capital" of the Misty Mountain orcs, anybody trying to pass through would have probably run into an orc or two (thousand)....remember, in The Hobbit, Thorin & Co. were captured and almost killed. 2) Gladden Fields: Both Sauron and Saruman had been keeping an eye (or the Eye) on the Gladden Fields, where the Ring passed out of knowledge 3000 years before. 3) Dol Guldur: Passing down Anduin or west Mirkwood would have brought the Fellowship too close to Dol Guldur, and all them trolls, orcs, and Nazgûl (Anduin couldn't protect them, then) would certainly capture or kill all the Fellowship, even if there was support from Lórien. And also remember: any trip that way would result in the destruction of Helm's Deep, Edoras, and (probably) Minas Tirith. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-05-2002, 02:36 PM	#4
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	well the only reason the fellowship escaped from moria was because the orcs got scared away by the balrog (and im hoping there isn't a balrog in the other pass also the orcs would be on their guard because thorin & co ngot away right under their noses so it would have been a lot harder for the fellowship to get away. p.s. did anyone note thet in the hobbit when bilbo meets up with thorin & co after escaping gandalf says: they will double their guard after that!! so with all this added up maybe moria was safer after all. p.p.s. everyone who agrees raise your hand!!! raises hand __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!

09-05-2002, 06:13 PM	#5
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Why do I say that going down Anduin would've resulted in the detruction of the Human Kingdoms? A number of reasons: 1) The time taken going first east, then south, would've spent more time than Rohan had. The Uruk-hai would've attacked and destroyed Helm's Deep (without Merry and Pippin the Huorns never would've been drawn/sent to Helm's Deep), the Ents never would've attacked Isengard, and after that, Edoras goes. 2) Gandalf would not have been killed, meaning that Gandalf the Grey would've remained. He would not have had the power to defeat Saruman (by breaking his staff, for the reason that he wouldn't have been able to enter Isengard [see reason 1]). Also, he would not have been able to organize the defense of Minas Tirith as effectively, and would not have been able to face down the Lord of the Nazzies at the Gate. 3) The Balrog never would've been killed, giving Sauron/Saruman an effective weapon against Lórien and Rivendell. 4) Éowyn would not have survived/been made a slave, meaning that the Witch-king would not have been killed. 5) The Rohirrim would not have been able to help Minas Tirith. 6) Aragorn would not have been able to travel the [BUM BUM BUM] Paths of the Dead ("Neigh") and, consequently, would not have been able to liberate Pelargir. The story with Gundabad: The Elrond was sure that the pass near there was infested by orcs/goblins/troll. They were not sure about Moria, and besides, they were planning on using Caradhras. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-06-2002, 08:21 AM	#7
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	1st reason: I didn't find a descent giant to block the road up. 2nd: it would take more time and speed was sth very hard needed. 3rd: I always wanted to take the route through moria, for it would take us out of sight and is the most unlikely rout to take. but Aragorn insisted in trying Caradhras first. 5th: Certainly the High Pass was watched for it was near Gundabad and would be the easiest way to take from Rivendell. This is as I see things. I was the safest, speediest and most unlikely way to take, and that is just what we wanted. Yet it prooved disastrous to me and almost to the whole fellowship. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-06-2002, 12:51 PM	#8
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	What happened to reason 4? [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."