Characters paying attention

[Huinesoron]

In the aftermath of the attack on Weathertop, Frodo is half-dozing when he hears this:

Originally Posted by FotR: Flight to the Ford

'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.'

A full chapter later, Frodo again has to face the Nazgul, and what do we see?

Originally Posted by FotR: Flight to the Ford

]With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword.

'Go back!' he cried. 'Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more! ' His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter. 'Come back! Come back!' they called. 'To Mordor we will take you!'

'Go back!' he whispered.

'The Ring! The Ring!' they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.

'By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!'

It doesn't work, but it's clear Frodo was paying attention to Aragorn when he talked about what is effective against the Nine. He listened! And just like a real person, he took what was said in his hearing and he remembered it for when it became relevant again.

Are there other examples of characters actually listening to what they're told? Not when they're specifically sat down and told "Young Hobbit, this is important", or when they refer back to it by saying "Gandalf told me that I must watch for this" - but just times when the actions they take clearly show that something that happened around them actually sank in, despite not being obviously relevant at the time.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Didn't Frodo also remember the Elves' song scaring off a Black Rider before he said it the first time, and Sam remember it too when calling to Elbereth in Cirith Ungol. Granted, that's observing, not listening, but ....

Frodo cried out 'O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!' when he struck the Nazgul's feet at Weathertop.

[mhagain]

Yes, Elbereth almost definitely came from Gildor and company in both cases, although when the Hobbits meet the Elves Frodo is shown to have previously known the name and known that it signified they were Noldor. The knowledge that the name could be harmful to the Nazgul? I'm not sure, but I think Aragorn might be being sarcastic when he says that. In other words, no point attacking them with weapons, you may as well shout names at them for all the good it will do.

That interpretation would be more in-character for Gandalf than Aragorn, I'll admit, but it still seems valid nonetheless.

The name Luthien definitely csme from Aragorn's story.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by mhagain

The knowledge that the name could be harmful to the Nazgul? I'm not sure, but I think Aragorn might be being sarcastic when he says that. In other words, no point attacking them with weapons, you may as well shout names at them for all the good it will do.

That interpretation would be more in-character for Gandalf than Aragorn, I'll admit, but it still seems valid nonetheless.

The name Luthien definitely csme from Aragorn's story.

I don't know why Aragorn would be sarcastic at that point, at least that is what never occurred to me. As Hui quoted, he says "More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." That does not sound to me like sarcasm. You are anyway right that Aragorn is not even the type to be sarcastic, and certainly not in such a situation where they're having half-dead Frodo. He is being very serious.

I find it very interesting that Frodo adds the name of Lúthien at the Ford - I would imagine that it is his own "upgrade", a try if, perchance, since the name of Elbereth seemed to "work", adding another big name from Elven mythology might produce the same effect. He probably remembered it because he recently heard Strider's story about Beren and Lúthien. Maybe he even figured that since the name of Elbereth last time got rid of the Witch-King, but not quite (he still managed to hurt Frodo), perhaps now using two names before he is in the danger of being stabbed might chase the Nazgul off for good.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Didn't Frodo also remember the Elves' song scaring off a Black Rider before he said it the first time, and Sam remember it too when calling to Elbereth in Cirith Ungol. Granted, that's observing, not listening, but ....

I'd forgotten the song having the same effect; good catch. And I didn't even realise that Sam thought back to it! He was there when Aragorn mentioned the effectiveness of the name of Elbereth, so I think it counts.

It's interesting that Sam's invocation is close to the song in Rivendell - most of the words come directly from the hymn - but is adapted to be a direct appeal (that tiro is a dead giveaway, being the same word as Tirith). I don't think I've ever actually seen in translated before; it doesn't show up in the lists of poems; but in the Common tongue it would be something like this:

O! Elbereth Star-Kindler
From the heavens all-seeing
To thee I cry from 'neath death's shadow:
O! Watch and ward me, Angel of Everwhite!

It's a good one, especially from someone who doesn't speak Sindarin. ^_~

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It strikes me that the Nazgul at the Fords were somewhat nonplussed by the fact that Frodo resisted at all. They withdrew at Weathertop not because Aragorn fought them off (curse you, PJ!) but because Mission Accomplished. They had stuck the Ringbearer with a morgul-blade, and it was just a matter of time-- rather like an assassin using a lethal but slow-acting poison.

Within a matter of days Frodo was supposed to be a wraith and wholly under their command. After all, it certainly would have been the case even for "mighty warriors of Men!" The W-K here was operating on insufficient data: to wit, a Hobbit's remarkable toughness (although Gollum might have given him a clue, had he thought about it).

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

although Gollum might have given him a clue, had he thought about it.

Bad inderdepartmental communication or Sauron being a control freak? Assuming it was Sauron alone who tortured Gollum and he didn't send his minions a memo about it.

[mhagain]

Gollum definitely met Sauron in person, he knew how many fingers he had.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It doesn't work

On what in the story is this conclusion based?

[Morsul the Dark]

I’m not necessarily sure this counts. But considering how he’s usually portrayed as a sort of bumbling type character, Pippin knowing about the ring and understanding that it was to be kept secret and while not knowing the full scope was able to glean its importance stands out for me.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Pippin is impetuous and tends to speak and act without thinking- but he is very clever. Flighty and unreliable, unlike the steady Merry, but he's a bright one, not stupid at all.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I’m not necessarily sure this counts. But considering how he’s usually portrayed as a sort of bumbling type character, Pippin knowing about the ring and understanding that it was to be kept secret and while not knowing the full scope was able to glean its importance stands out for me.

One thought about Pippin that I read elsewhere on the web and really liked:

Pippin does a Gollum impression to Grishnakh, who instantly recognizes it. Pippin has never met Gollum. Which means that when telling his adventures, Bilbo must have done a killer Gollum impersonation, and Pippin paid attention and remembered!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

On what in the story is this conclusion based?

'By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!'

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore.

I don't see any indication in that paragraph or the rest of the chapter that Frodo's words had any effect. You could argue that it would have, or why would the Witch-King bother to shut him up, but I don't think it did.

I guess it's possible that standing up to silence Frodo delayed the Witch-King by a crucial second or two; if he'd been slightly faster he would have been on the shore when the flood came. But it's also possible to stand up in stirrups while the horse keeps moving, so that's not a certain point.

Do you get something different from the text? I'd quite like it to have an impact, it's a great line, so I'm open to persuasion. ^_^

hS

[littlemanpoet]

I had not reread it before I posed my question, so thank you, Huinesoron, for quoting the text. It appears that you are correct.

My thought was that if the name Elbereth does have greater power than Frodo's sword (it is not Sting and not Elven), then it would have an effect.

However, there are extentuations to consider: first, perhaps the words coming from a more powerful being such as an Elf, might have had a greater effect. But more likely, by the time they had come to the river, Frodo was at an extremity, his will having been taxed for days since Weathertop.

So perhaps the words did have an effect, but the Nazgul had too great an advantage that, by this time, Frodo was not able to overcome by using the Name.

[Morsul the Dark]

I don’t have much to back this up other than vague hypothesis based on the Nazgul’s abilities.

Maybe the strength of Elberoth isn’t the name but the hope it imbues. Nazgul obviously deal in fear and menace. To the point being being nearby you can feel them. So what happens if you counter that with hope?

Is there any solid evidence emotions can affect them in a similar way?