Father-names among the Noldor

[Huinesoron]

Noldor men are really terrible at naming their children.

I've known aspects of this for a while: Finwe, famously, named all three of his sons Finwe, and then differentiated them later (into Skilled, Wise, and Noble Finwe - Curufinwe, Nolofinwe, and Arafinwe). And of course, equally famously, Finwe - sorry, I mean Curufinwe - sorry, Feanor - named all seven of his sons... Finwe. I don't think Tolkien explicitly stated that he added individual parts later, but he did say that Curufin has his dad's full name because he was Feanor's favourite, which seems hard to square with him getting it at birth.

Okay, fine. I assumed this was just a quirk of the Finwe-Feanor relationship. After all, Curufin named his own son 'Telperinquar', which has nothing at all to do with his own name!

... haha. Nope. Check out the full family tree:

-FINWE had three sons - Finwe, Finwe, and Finwe. He also had two daughters, one of whom he named Findis, because she was the daughter of Finwe and Indis. (Írimë/Írien seems to have gotten away unscathed.)

--(Curu)Finwe named all seven of his sons Finwe. We know this one.

--(Nolo)Finwe (aka Fingolfin) had three sons, whose names are listed as Findekáno, Turukáno, and Arakáno. 'Kano' means 'commander', so yes, he called all his sons 'chief'. As in 'hey there, chief, how was school today?'. (His daughter... well, 'Aredhel' means 'noble elf', which is a pretty awful name, but he may have named her Írissë.)

--(Ara)Finwe (aka Finarfin) had four or five kids, depending on where you count Orodreth. Their names? Findaráto, Angaráto, Ambaráto, Artaresto (or Artaher), and Artanis (no escape for Galadriel here!). And yes, that's the same -ara- element in all the names - it means 'lofty' or 'exalted'. 'Arato' means 'champion'. If we treat Orodreth (Artaresto) as Angrod's son, then all three of Finarfin's sons were named... 'champ'.

---Artaresto, according to Tolkien's preferred family tree, doubled down on the theme. His own son (aka Gil-Galad) was called Artanáro. (Finduilas seems to have done okay, though her name might mean 'shiny hair' and be essentially a mirror of Galadriel's nickname).

And that takes us through the entire House of Finwe... what's that? There's more? Oh, yes, of course there are:

---Finwe and Finwe - sorry, that's Third-Finwe and Loud-Finwe, or Maedhros and Maglor to you - found a couple of kids in a cave. "Hey, look," they said, "elves! Let's call them Elrond and Elros!" (Sure, that might be 'star'; that's not any better.)

----Elrond had two sons (by Celebrian, who was a Finwe by blood, and indeed has a name made from bits of her parents names). "Hey, look," he said, "elves! Let's call them Elladan and Elrohir!" Presumably at this point Celebrian rolled her eyes, but didn't bother to say anything, because men just suck at names. Nor did she say anything when he named her daughter 'noble lady'.

I wonder if this is why Noldorin mothers insisted on giving their own names to their kids - because they knew that men had a huge cultural blindspot which led them to either give them all the same name, or name them something daft like 'pretty'.

... oh, and in case you think this is just House Finwe being daft - go check out Guilin. We don't know his sons' original names, but Gelmir and Gwindor certainly have a conspicuous first letter in common with dear ol' dad.

(And Edrahil of Nargothrond was also named Enedrion, which means 'son of Enedir'... yes, that could well be the same element!)

All of which means that I have to conclude the most creative Noldorin man was... Curufin, who gave his son an actually original name.

hS

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

--(Ara)Finwe (aka Finarfin) . . .

I assume you mean Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod) here.

had four or five kids, depending on where you count Orodreth.

Well (not that you said otherwise) but going by Tolkien's latest know design, Artaher was moved down, so four in my opinion.

Their names? Findaráto . . .

Ingalaure rather (aka Inglor Felagund). Indis preferred the Telerin-in-form Mother-name Findaráto for Arafinwe, Findaráto Sindarized in Middle-earth as Finrod, even though he stayed in Aman.


:cough:

---Finwe and Finwe - sorry, that's Third-Finwe and Loud-Finwe, or Maedhros and Maglor to you - found a couple of kids in a cave. "Hey, look," they said, "elves! Let's call them Elrond and Elros!" (Sure, that might be 'star'; that's not any better.)

I think this story is outdated, though the names remain to protect the innocent

[Galadriel55]

So I have a question:

If a woodchuck can chuck wood, how many Finwes can a Finwe Finwe?


I am also imagining this scenario, which probably confirms exactly why Noldorin mothers named their kids separately:

Nerdanel: - Finwe!
*Voices from next door*:
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Honey?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galin

Indis preferred the Telerin-in-form Mother-name Findaráto for Arafinwe, Findaráto Sindarized in Middle-earth as Finrod, even though he stayed in Aman.

I don't think so. According to the Shibboleth, it was Finrod's [i.e. Felagund's] and Angrod's mother, Eärwen of Alqualonde, Finarfin's wife, who named them Findaráto, Angaráto in her native tongue (vs Quenya Artafindë, Artanga). Indis was a Vanya, why would she use Telerin forms?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I don't think so. According to the Shibboleth, it was Finrod's [i.e. Felagund's] and Angrod's mother, Eärwen of Alqualonde, Finarfin's wife, who named them Findaráto, Angaráto in her native tongue (vs Quenya Artafindë, Artanga). Indis was a Vanya, why would she use Telerin forms?

Because she preferred the sound of Findaráto.

See HOME XV, or my post in the thread above, where this happened

"I chose "Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod)" as the Sindarization doesn't match. It matches the Mother-name Findaráto. In other words, both these parts were tongue-in-cheek, using the Inglor Felagund scenario."

Sorry to leady astray!

[Pitchwife]

Yeah sorry, I'd overlooked your 'tongue in cheek' comment to Hui above. But I still think Findaráto as a Mother-name for Arafinwë is untenable. On the other hand I could imagine Eärwen calling her hubby thus, and their children using the Sindarized form when talking to grand-uncle Thingol and his people.


By the way, if Felagund was renamed Inglor, what does that mean for Gildor Inglorion? Was he literally Felagund's son? I rather liked the bit about Felagund not marrying because he foresaw his oath to Barahir and its fatal consequence (also Amarië).


That's the thing about Tolkien - you can't change a name without changing the story.

[Galin]

Felagund was Inglor Felagund according to the first edition -- well not exactly, as the name Inglor itself didn't appear there for him -- but first edition: Finrod was the father of Galadriel and Felagund < named Inglor Felagund in the Silmarillion. You probably know this . . .

. . . but anyway, above I was just playing with giving Finwe's son (Arafinwe) a Father-name with Finwe, who stayed in Aman, and yet keep a Sindarized "Finrod" (House of Finrod) in Middle-earth . . .

. . . although Tolkien would be less constrained than I am, if he had desired to keep the first edition idea and work out all the names.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

( . . . ) Feanor - named all seven of his sons... Finwe. I don't think Tolkien explicitly stated that he added individual parts later, but he did say that Curufin has his dad's full name because he was Feanor's favourite, which seems hard to square with him getting it at birth.

It's also noted that Feanor begged Nerdanel that the Mother-names of his last two sons -- Ambarussa - should be different.

Another reason Curufin received the name Curufinwe is that he resembled his father very much in face. This is reflected in his Mother-name Atarinke "Little father -- referring to his physical likeness to Feanor, later found also to be seen in his mind."

The Note on Mother-names (The Shibboleth of Feanor) begins: "The Eldar in Valinor had as a rule . . ." and states that the Father-name was given at birth, usually "recalling" the father's name by resembling it in sense or form, or "sometimes" it was simply the Father's name, to which some distinguishing prefix in the case of a son might be added later.

So what about Feanor's sons? Another, earlier text about naming (Morgoth's Ring) begins: "This is the manner in which the naming of children was achieved among the Noldor" -- and without going into detail here about the earlier text possibly being superseded -- in my opinion it's also possible that this account is simply more detailed concerning Noldorin customs specifically, where (in any case) it's said . . .

Laws and Customs: "soon after birth the child was named. It was the right of the father to devise this first-name, and he it was that announced it to the child's kindred on both sides" [and in the early days of the Eldar]

"( . . . ) it was then still the custom for the father-name of a son to be a modification of the father's name (as Finwe/Curufinwe) or a patronymic (as Finwion "son of Finwe")."

JRRT, Morgoth's Ring

[note: in this text, version B, Finwe named Feanor Finwion, later modified to Curufinwe when his talent was revealed]

Here the Noldor have Father-names, Chosen-names -- meaning the right to name themselves at a given point --
and other names including Mother-names.

[Pitchwife]

We're talking about the work of John Ronald Reuel, son of Arthur Reuel, brother of Hilary Arthur Reuel, father of John Francis Reuel, Michael Hilary Reuel and Christopher John Reuel - and, for crying out loud, he even named his daughter Priscilla Mary Anne Reuel! (It carries on in subsequent generations.) What did you expect?

[Galin]

LOL!

Plus I think Tolkien was friends with Bjorn Eriksson, son of Erik Bjornsson

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

I assume you mean Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod) here.

My understanding is that the initial "Finwe" was added after the fact to emphasise his status as a High King (probably by his sons in Beleriand, as a counter to Fingolfin doing the same thing). Frankly we're lucky the others didn't do the same thing: "Finturgon! Your brother Finfingon has fallen, and you are now High King! After you will come Fingil-galad!" ^_~

Originally Posted by Galin

Well (not that you said otherwise) but going by Tolkien's latest know design, Artaher was moved down, so four in my opinion.

Yep, which actually makes more sense, since he's the one who doesn't quite fit the pattern. (Hilariously, it means Angrod half-named his son after his sister Artanis; weirdo.)

Originally Posted by Galin

Ingalaure rather (aka Inglor Felagund). Indis preferred the Telerin-in-form Mother-name Findaráto for Arafinwe, Findaráto Sindarized in Middle-earth as Finrod, even though he stayed in Aman.

-_-

Originally Posted by Galin

I think this story is outdated, though the names remain to protect the innocent

I think Tolkien threw up his hands in despair at these two, didn't he? But the idea that Maglor named them still stands, I think, which means "Hey look, elves!" is canon.

Originally Posted by Galin

It's also noted that Feanor begged Nerdanel that the Mother-names of his last two sons -- Ambarussa - should be different.

I can only imagine she reacted by just staring at him for over a minute, and then:

"Seriously???"

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

We're talking about the work of John Ronald Reuel, son of Arthur Reuel, brother of Hilary Arthur Reuel, father of John Francis Reuel, Michael Hilary Reuel and Christopher John Reuel - and, for crying out loud, he even named his daughter Priscilla Mary Anne Reuel! (It carries on in subsequent generations.) What did you expect?

In fairness, they really liked Mr Reuel. ^_^ But yes - the idea of inherited family names doesn't sound so strange from that perspective.

I guess we're lucky Elves didn't have a high childhood mortality rate, or else we'd doubtless have seen the other pre-modern practice of slapping the names of your dead kids onto the living ones. It makes family trees a lively affair, let me tell you.

hS

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

My understanding is that the initial "Finwe" was added after the fact to emphasise his status as a High King (probably by his sons in Beleriand, as a counter to Fingolfin doing the same thing).

I chose "Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod)" as the Sindarization doesn't match. It matches the Mother-name Findaráto. In other words, both these parts were tongue-in-cheek, using the Inglor Felagund scenario.


But my point with Feanor and Nerdanel was more serious. Deadly serious


And it's that if we use Of Naming among the Noldor from Laws and Customs (Morgoth's Ring), as I read it so far anyway, all of Feanor's sons can be distinguished early by their Father-names, and this could explain why he begged Nerdanel not to give his last two sons the same name . . .

. . . that is, Curufinwe did not name his sons Finwe soon after birth, but Nelyafinwe and so on, with Curufinwe (for Curufin) explained as above.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

We're talking about the work of John Ronald Reuel, son of Arthur Reuel, brother of Hilary Arthur Reuel, father of John Francis Reuel, Michael Hilary Reuel and Christopher John Reuel - and, for crying out loud, he even named his daughter Priscilla Mary Anne Reuel! (It carries on in subsequent generations.) What did you expect?

The Tolkiens Reuel!

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Tolkiens Reuel!

And I think 'Anne' may have been a confirmation name.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So was "John"