Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, discussion thread

[Nogrod]

The players


Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Huinesoron
Loslote
Pitchwife
Kath
Galadriel55
Lhunardawen
Inziladun
Kitanna
A Little Green
Boromir88
Urwen
Lalaith
Brinniel
Eönwë
Macalaure
Rikae
Rune Son of Bjarne
THE Ka
Satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin


General rules.


The roles (with 22 players)

5 Infectors ("wolves")
1 Cobbler

1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Hunter
1 Innocent Child

12 ordinary Villagers


Victory conditions

The Villagers win if they get rid of all the Infectors. The Infectors win, if they manage to even the number of innocent Villagers with their own numbers. The Cobbler wins if the Infectors win and s/he is still among the healthy Villagers (s/he may of course take it as moral victory though, if the evil wins even if s/he is quarantined).

There is a kind of a secondary victory condition as well. If the Villagers manage to keep Lalaith safe, they get a lot of credit and can prize themselves for keeping up the cause of beauty and goodness in this dark and evil world. This concerns the QT especially as players there already know their characters and should be more concerned also about that side of the story.

The Infectors hold infecting or quarantining Lalaith a special reward as well: what would be more fitting to Morgoth than destroying joy, innocence and laughter? Even if the Infectors lose, they might hold removing Lalaith a sort of a consolation prize.

NB. These secondary conditions have no bearing on the actual winning conditions and are mainly for giving the game some extra emotional weight, and naturally for bragging rights after the game.


The Threads

- 1 Game Thread for the supposed healthy Villagers ("the living") where people vote everyDay for one person to be quarantined.
- 1 Quarantine Thread for the secluded and Nightly infected ("the dead") where people vote everyDay to whom to give their one vote in the Game Thread

Everyone belongs to one of the threads and no-one belongs to both - and they are able to post only on that one Thread. The Quarantined are allowed to read the Game Thread as well, but the healthy are not allowed to read the QT. Discussion in the Game Thread is prohibited during the Nights, but the QT is open around the clock.


Deadlines

- Deadline for voting Daily in the Game Thread is 9PM GMT/UTC (which ends the Day)
- Deadline for voting Daily in the Quarantine Thread is 7PM GMT/UTC (aka. two hours before the Game deadline) after which it is revealed (by the mod) in the Game Thread.
- Deadline for Nightly actions for the special roles is 8PM GMT/UTC (aka. one hour before a new Day begins). Earlier announcements are strongly encouraged and approved of.

- Narration which includes the revealing of the newly quarantined's role will be posted in the Game Thread as soon as possible, hopefully within half an hour from the voting Deadline.
- Every new Day begins with a Nightly narration revealing the person and role that has been infected at Night (if there is one).


Voting

-Make your vote on a separate line (with one empty line both over and under it). Use the traditional form:

++ Nogrod

To make it look like that (to make it “highlighted”), bold the vote and then change the letter B in square brackets into the word: highlight

Like this (with also a square bracket on the left)

highlight]++ Nogrod[/highlight]

- If in a last second frenzy, you can edit the “highlighting” after you have first just sent the vote, but that applies only to votes sent on the very last seconds (to avoid being late with your vote because of needing to type the word ‘highlight’ twice). All other editing of the votes is strictly prohibited.
- There are no retractable votes aka. once sent, the highlighted votes are final.


Rules for ties in voting

- If there is a tie in votes in the Game Thread, the one who has gotten the most number of votes the earliest is quarantined.
- If there is a tie of votes in the Quarantine Thread, the one who has been quarantined the latest - and has voted for one of the tied candidates - has the final say (aka. her vote counts practically as two). NB. A Nightly infected person is not counted as the "most recently quarantined" unless the tie can not be solved following this rule (in case of which it counts).


Rules concerning special characters

- The Seer learns all the roles.
- The Ranger can’t protect the same person two Nights in a row and can’t protect himself.
- If the Hunter is targeted by Night he will fight and attack whomever he has chosen to hunt (so he's the "illogical hunter") – both will be turned into the QT in the morning. If the Hunter is voted to be quarantined at the end of a Day, he will take with him anyone he has chosen, whoever that is.
- The Cobbler is counted among the innocents in the tally that decides whether the Infectors have won or not (even number of players on both sides).
- The Innocent Child can reveal herself to be the Innocent Child. In that case the Mod confirms the revelation.
- If anyone with a special role that includes Nightly actions doesn’t inform me at least one hour before the Deadline (the Daybreak), aka. 8PM GMT/UTC, that action is botched up.
- Players with a singular special role know their characters in the story. As I think I discussed these possibilities openly somewhere (and behind the scenes with my fellow Finnish 'Downers), let's make them public and official: Seer = Húrin, Ranger = Huor, Hunter = Túrin, The Innocent Child = Urwen/Lalaith, Cobbler = Andróg. Anyone can use this information in any way they see fitting their aims.


Narration, characters, players

- The narration will build an alternative legendarium. It is based on the characters of the CoH and is guided by your decisions in the game. Everyone of you is paired with certain character in the legendarium and that bond will come public in the narrations whenever someone is quarantined or moved into the QT because of the Nightly actions. The people in the QT are free to exploit those connections and have their fun with them as they wish.
- Important note: it will be in vain to search for clues from the narrations as to the roles (seer, ranger, “wolf”…) of the players. There will be none. The characters of the narrations will follow their personalities and commitments, not the actions or words of the players in the game whom they are paired with. The game you play just directs their destinies and thus creates the narrative.


Modfire

- A person who does not vote or post in two Days in a row, will be modfired.
- A person who continuously avoids being modfired by posting just the minimum (fex. posts one oneliner in every other Day) may be given a warning. A modfire results from two warnings. (Everyone doesn't have to flood-post, but everyone should at least show a minimal interest to the game.)
- If someone has RL problems taking part at certain times, please notify others of it in this Discussion Thread. The mod is also much more lenient to proclaimed absences.


Technical remainders

- Go to invisbility mode (User CP -> Edit Options -> Invisible mode). The Mod will be visible so you can see if he’s around.
- Check that you have room in your PM box.
- If you have questions, check the rules first. If there is no answer there, you can always PM the Mod. You may ask about a specific rule in the Game Thread as well if it looks like it is a question we haven’t tackled with before the game, but especially in that case, PM the Mod as well.
- Use the Discussion Thread for any “Meta-info” aka. if you suddenly need to be away for some considerable time or have technical problems etc.


Apropos

Less experienced players - and why not also the "rusty veterans" - might do well to check the quite nice guidelines, abbreviations etc. Morm has gathered together. The post is pinned on the "Middle-Earth Mirth" and can be found here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16791

[Nogrod]

Okay. Let's start the discussion of the game here.

Here are some of my preliminary thoughts on it.


Firstly, I think I have a nice solution to this"dead thread" problem.

Because this is a story about the House of Hador and the people of Haleth, who are true to their kin not killing each other based on random accusations, we should treat the whole matter in a bit different way. Especially as it is the highly contagious Evil Breath of Morgoth that torments them rather than some basic werewolves just ripping their limbs apart.

So instead of a graveyard or a dead-thread, a quarantine-house is called for!

The villagers lock up one person at the end of every Day in quarantine ("lynching") and every morning one person who has gotten sick ("killed by wolves") by Night is being carried there as well.

All the roles are revealed in "death". If the roles are not told, the game becomes even more random than it already is.


Secondly, I think I also came up with quite a nice idea for the "dead-thread" aka. quarantine-thread (QT).

All the people in QT can, and hopefully will, use their Days discussing the matters and then, let's say two hours before the Deadline, they vote to whom they will give their vote that Day. So the quarantined have one vote, no matter how many they are.

The vote of the QT is then announced to the villagers immediately (two hours before the Dl, for example) and will be put down in the general tally of votes.

Originally Posted by Legate

In the absolutely worst case, a Wolf will end up lynched on Day 1, then ostracised by fellow dead, and will be bored for the rest of the game. But that is the worst-case scenario for one person, as opposed to everyone else. I think it's worth it.

Agreed.

Even I could see in this scenario something fun even for the lonely D1 "lynched" wolf. For I was thinking that in case of a tie in votes (in the QT) it would be the most "veteran" quarantined who would make the final decision between the ones with same number of votes. So on D2 the wolf would be the one who chooses, who to give the QT-vote! (Place for many different tactics!!!)



So, what say you? Comments, suggestions?


PS. Someone asked when we would start? I'd say that as soon as we get enough players to have a decent game. I'd say 12 the least. If my memory serves me right the old school games were normally between something like 14-16 players? That I think would be ideal. So maybe not in a day or two, but next week probably, hopefully?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So instead of a graveyard or a dead-thread, a quarantine-house is called for!

How very excellent!

Originally Posted by Nogrod

All the roles are revealed in "death". If the roles are not told, the game becomes even more random than it already is.

That would seem to have a large effect on the Quarantined votes. How likely are the Innocents there to listen to a known baddie?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That would seem to have a large effect on the Quarantined votes. How likely are the Innocents there to listen to a known baddie?

Well, most probably very little.

But like Legate said, we've seen some hilarious trolling going on in a dead thread were a wolf starts to run amok... And I think that's the way of least problems and most people gaining a longer and more satisfying game.

Without a "dead-thread" aka. Quarantine-Thread this time, the innocent "lynched" on D1 or killed on N2 gets to play just one Day and that's it: after all these years of not playing a game that's quite an anticlimax, to put it mildly...

One could say, that even if this is kind of a bad thing for a early-lynched wolf, it is not any worse than just being lynched in a game without a dead-thread (actually I'd say it's better) and that the wolf has anyway gotten the thrills of playing a wolf - which is more exciting than playing a normal villager on early Days.

So I wouldn't think of that as a problem.


Also I think those games where we've had the dead-thread trying to signal something to the living / sending their thoughts with delay (like the village gets to know what they did the next Day, or if someone visits there or whatever versions we've had) have mostly just not worked that well. Them being able instead to follow the village discussion almost all Day everyDay, and then giving an actual vote before the deadline (yet early enough the villagers have some time to pay heed to it), feels to me much more interesting to both the villagers and the dead (quarantined, that is).

[Huinesoron]

Does this mean the "Wolves" are asymptomatic carriers? I kind of love it.

I wonder whether a full-fledged Quarantine Vote might not disrupt things too much, though - for instance, if a Seer gets killed without explicitly revealing their results, the village would almost have to follow the first Quarantine Vote on the assumption that the Seer was behind it. I don't really know whether that would be a problem, though, or if it's just part of the fun.

As far as the seniority system goes: rather than pinning the timing down to a single person being available at the right moment, I'd suggest making a tie go to whichever person had the most veteran Quarantinee vote for them, out of the QTs who were involved in the tie. So if the Day 1 lynch votes for a third party, we'd look at the Night 1 kill's vote instead (or the Day 2 lynch, etc etc). That makes it slightly more automatic, and means a less-active Quarantine House isn't a game-breaker.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That would seem to have a large effect on the Quarantined votes. How likely are the Innocents there to listen to a known baddie?

That depends - is the know baddie saying 'you definitely shouldn't vote for him, he's totally not a wolf' - and are they telling the truth when they say it? They're definitely giving you information - you just need to work out if it's a bluff or not.

hS

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As far as the seniority system goes: rather than pinning the timing down to a single person being available at the right moment, I'd suggest making a tie go to whichever person had the most veteran Quarantinee vote for them, out of the QTs who were involved in the tie.

That is actually a fair point: we can't be sure we have the most senior Quarantined person available if s/he hasn't voted for either or the tied candidates. So let's say that in a case of a tie in QT the most "veteran" quarantined player's (in sense of how early that person got there, that is) vote for either / any of the evenly voted is the tie-breaker.

[Galadriel55]

Something I wanna clarify: does the QT vote to empower a living vote, or casts a vote of their own independently of the living thread?

[A Little Green]

Late to the party, but count me in! Also can I say that I love the abbreviation QT as it makes the dead thread sound very cute

[Nogrod]

Nice too see you Greenie and Boro!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Something I wanna clarify: does the QT vote to empower a living vote, or casts a vote of their own independently of the living thread?

They are like one villager - and they have one vote.

Think of it like this (I'm not sure I got your question correctly). Every living villager has one vote each but the QT has one vote as a unit whatever the number of them are (and that is a result of their own "internal voting").

The QT is like one villager then, voting with the other villagers at the end of everyDay. And like a villager can give her/his vote any time of the Day, the QT gives it's vote at a certain time of the Day. I was thinking about two hours before the DL to be fair to both parties (the QT would have as long time as possible to see what happens on the Day they give their vote - and the villagers would have some decent time to pay heed to what the QT voted).


I think it could be very interesting if the game goes on for longer: as the number of people in QT arises in proportion to the living villagers, the weight of their vote also increases. For example an early game one vote from 15 votes (14 villagers remaining) is pretty insignificant, but one vote from four in the endgame (three villagers remaining) is quite huge indeed!

I love the abbreviation QT as it makes the dead thread sound very cute

Hehe. Didn't kind of vocalise it in my mind before you mentioned it.

[Thinlómien]

Ok I'm not diving into the rule discussion right now but:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sally (if she can get logged in)
Macalaure (if his account will allow him to post)

I hear Greenie and Kath had similar type issues and they both got them sorted by Esty who know which mod to ask to fix it. I'm sure no one will have to sit this one out just because of technical problems!

[Lalaith]

I'm really busy at work despite the lockdown...oh fine...count me in

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I'm really busy at work despite the lockdown...oh fine...count me in

Oh yes!

Hehe. Now we have both Lalaith and Urwen in the game!

And I was kind of planning that the aim of the game (in non-rules sense of it) would be to change the Legendarium and save Urwen / Lalaith from death! But does it now have to be "both"? How shall I name that poor little girl in the narrations now?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One more question about that QT-vote came to mind from your comments. Should it actually be just one hour before the DL they have to vote? In a normal game the action tends to pack into the last hour of the Day - or the last 1½ hours - if the Deadline is good for most people. I wouldn't want to leave it to the very end but would like to leave the Villagers some time to mull the QT vote over before the DL. On the other hand, the later the QT can follow the things folding out the more reasoned choices they can made - and the more fulfilling the game is for them.

Just remember, that a "more reasoned choice" doesn't equal "the right choice"

The pros of an earlier QT vote is that it potentially gives information (whether correct or not) to the game thread - i.e. the Sick think that it's better to vote for X than Y. But the pros of a later (or even at deadline) QT vote is that it is more of a "thunderbolt from heaven" type of thing, to alter events but not the interactions at the end of the Day. The earlier you put it, the more it influences the living votes.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And I was kind of planning that the aim of the game (in non-rules sense of it) would be to change the Legendarium and save Urwen / Lalaith from death! But does it now have to be "both"? How shall I name that poor little girl in the narrations now?

The true daughter of Hurin?

[Loslote]

What if there's an extra win condition for the Dead Thread: "Your death was 'worth it' if The True Daughter of Hurin survives". Only the Dead know who that is, and they're voting to try to keep her alive. Could be a fun sub plot, and one that both villagers and wolves can work together on.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Loslote

What if there's an extra win condition for the Dead Thread: "Your death was 'worth it' if The True Daughter of Hurin survives". Only the Dead know who that is, and they're voting to try to keep her alive. Could be a fun sub plot, and one that both villagers and wolves can work together on.

And it might nicely meddle with the thinking of everyone in the gamethread...

I have been pondering how to make Urwen/Lalaith special (I was thinking of Morwen the Seer, Húrin the Ranger and little Túrin the haphazard Hunter who might accidentally turn things for the worse) and thinking how keeping her alive against the legend would be a nice touch - but this never occured to me!

I promise to give this a good thought.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

All the people in QT can, and hopefully will, use their Days discussing the matters and then, let's say two hours before the Deadline, they vote to whom they will give their vote that Day. So the quarantined have one vote, no matter how many they are.

The vote of the QT is then announced to the villagers immediately (two hours before the Dl, for example) and will be put down in the general tally of votes.

I think this is a great idea. I like the idea of a separate thread and that the vote is thrown at the Live Thread a little before the deadline. Like you say, there's often a flurry of activity right before the deadline and suddenly getting an extra vote will definitely make things interesting!

In terms of timings, I think a deadline of an hour before on the QT would give the LT enough time to dissect the vote to death before end of Day.

Originally Posted by Loslote

What if there's an extra win condition for the Dead Thread: "Your death was 'worth it' if The True Daughter of Hurin survives". Only the Dead know who that is, and they're voting to try to keep her alive. Could be a fun sub plot, and one that both villagers and wolves can work together on.

This sounds like such a fun idea! Gives the QT something extra to work towards as well.

[satansaloser2005]

Fixed it! Sign me up.

[Galadriel55]

After a bit of searching I finally found the button for invisible mode. It has been too long since I did that.


I like the idea of a cobbler in this game, particularly since there are a lot of people and I think it would be more fun with an extra cobbler baddie than just a wolf baddie.

I have no input on the DL. I have a feeling that I am gonna overextend myself between school, work, babysitting, and this, and probably won't be able to sit around refreshing the page for updates anyways, and depending on the day my posts may be bountiful (work ) or sparse and early (babysitting).

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

After a bit of searching I finally found the button for invisible mode. It has been too long since I did that.

Oh my goodness, I had entirely forgotten about the need for that! For those of us with poor memories, could you explain how?!

[Nogrod]

Kath (and others who have forgotten it).

Go to: User CP -> Edit Options -> Use invisible mode


I have updated the first post of this thread with some general rules. Until Sunday-evening they are all negotiable. I'll add the rules for the specific roles a bit later.


We had a little chat (Lommy, Greenie, Legate and myself) and came to a conclusion that with 21 players (Whoa!) we need 5 "wolves"!

[Lalaith]

Nogs- you could always do a cheeky rewrite the legendarium - Lalaith and Urwen could be twins?

[Thinlómien]

I don't have much to add except holy gandalf I'm so excited in start in only a bit more than 24h

Also five wolves?

(Even though as Nogrod said, we did the maths in our family video call today, and if there were just four it would be pretty impossible for the wolves to win. It just sounds like an insane number!)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Nogs- you could always do a cheeky rewrite the legendarium - Lalaith and Urwen could be twins?

Plot twist - what if there were two girls originally, and in truth, only one of them died while the other one survived, and typically for his tragic story full of misunderstandings, Túrin never realised that his sister was, in fact, alive the whole time.

[Galadriel55]

Not sure if this has been said but I didn't see it reading over the rules post: is the Hunter logical? And can the Ranger self-protect or protect people twice in a row?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not sure if this has been said but I didn't see it reading over the rules post: is the Hunter logical? And can the Ranger self-protect or protect people twice in a row?

It seems I haven't written that stuff to anyone else but the gifteds themselves. Let me elaborate those in a moment (just now in a bit of a hurry).

[Nogrod]

Ok. I added the following rules to the Rules-Post.

- The Seer learns all the roles.

- The Ranger can’t protect the same person two Nights in a row and can’t protect himself.

- If the Hunter is targeted by Night he will fight and attack whomever he has chosen to hunt (so he's the "illogical hunter") – both will be turned into the QT in the morning. If the Hunter is voted to be quarantined at the end of a Day, he will take with him anyone he has chosen, whoever that is.


NB: THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE TO THE HUNTER ROLE (My bad, I remembered the traditional role incorrectly.)

[Nogrod]

Just wanted to share my weird feelings.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have predicted we're playing Werewolf again, especially with this huge a Village. Then again I wouldn't have predicted a global pandemic that would derail the everyday life for all of us on this level either.

But maybe it is exactly like this: when we face adversities, we find new and old ways to confirm our togetherness, and well, seek and find comfort with other people amidst agonies of many sorts.

And all this reminds me of the quote by Mr. Martin Luther King Jr. “We may have all come on different ships, but we’re in the same boat now.”

So let's all enjoy this boat ride we're starting together in a moment!

Delve into the game, think, speak, communicate... Have fun with all the wonderful people sharing this adventure with you!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Just wanted to share my weird feelings.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have predicted we're playing Werewolf again, especially with this huge a Village. Then again I wouldn't have predicted a global pandemic that would derail the everyday life for all of us on this level either.

But maybe it is exactly like this: when we face adversities, we find new and old ways to confirm our togetherness, and well, seek and find comfort with other people amidst agonies of many sorts.

And all this reminds me of the quote by Mr. Martin Luther King Jr. “We may have all come on different ships, but we’re in the same boat now.”

So let's all enjoy this boat ride we're starting together in a moment!

Delve into the game, think, speak, communicate... Have fun with all the wonderful people sharing this adventure with you!

<3 <3 <3 Thank you for making this possible and enjoy watching us squabble!