Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

So here's the deal. Rather than making a separate thread for each random/silly question I might have, I'll put all of my question here.


Now, for my first question: Did Maeglin really deserve to die?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Now, for my first question: Did Maeglin really deserve to die?

Shall we quote Gandalf about the dangers of passing judgement on who deserves death?

In seriousness, though, whatever his reasons Maeglin did betray his entire city to Morgoth. He got captured going against the law, he gave away the location of Gondolin not for fear or pain but for greed, and it wouldn't be unreasonable that national treason of such scale be rewarded death. Such a betrayal is not justified by personal quarrel. He gave up the entire city, the city that was said to be the hope of Elvenkind, the only thing Morgoth couldn't find or control, a whole freaking Elven kingdom - knowingly and willingly! It's a tad different from Gorlim who also betrayed companions for personal reasons, but he was tricked and unwilling. I guess grief is also a more sympathetic feeling than lust.

Good idea for a small question chatroom-like thread!

[Urwen]

So you believe he did deserve it?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So you believe he did deserve it?

Why not ask the other way around: what do you think did he deserve? What could have gone differently so that he lived? Or maybe died differently? So - do you think he deserved a different end?

[Urwen]

Well, if you asked me, they were bound to notice he was missing, so they should have searched for him. Maybe the whole thing could have been averted if they did.


And he was not merely one of the multitudes either. He was practically royalty, and quite possibly the heir to the city (There was no law that allowed women to inherit at the time). So there was no reason not to look for him.


Furthermore, if they had organized a search-and-rescue operation, they could have healed him from the physical/mental wounds. And they could have helped him overcome his lust as well.


The whole thing reeks of neglect to me.

[Huinesoron]

Taking the 1917 Fall of Gondolin as my source, I can at least say that Maeglin - Meglin, at that point - deserved to die at the time he was killed: he was busy trying to abduct Idril and murder Earendil at the time. In a war, killing someone who is attacking you is fairly acceptable.

As a more general 'was M[a]eglin irredemable', I think the 1917 text gives a fairly firm yes to that, too. There's no indication that he was lost for a long time: he goes to the hills, wanders off into the mountains, gets captured by Orcs, and almost immediately says 'Hey, I'm the prince of Gondolin and I can tell you how to destroy it' (he says this to his captors, not to Morgoth or any higher-ups; all indications are that he just launched straight into high treason). He was also sent home 'lest at his absence men suspect somewhat'; that implies that in the events that actually occurred, he wasn't gone over-long.

How do the other versions of the tale match up? (I'm just working through the Fall of Gondolin standalone here.) The Sketch of the Mythology tells us that he went 'far afield' over the mountains, and only betrays Gondolin in Angband - though his lust for Idril and hatred for Tuor make it easier for him. Tuor still rescues his family from Maeglin and kills him.

The Quenta Noldorinwa informs us that Maeglin 'purposed to possess' Idril, and in this case his getting lost is because he 'went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied'. It seems that Maeglin was prone to going off on long mining expeditions; there was no way for people to know that this time he'd gotten lost.

However, this time it's threat of torture that leads to his betrayal... but he's also explicitly tasked with helping the invasion from the inside. Yet again Tuor has to rescue his family, and this time Maeglin's death seems to be from falling over the wall during a fight.

And that's... it, as far as the source texts go (Of Tuor &c never got that far). From all the evidence, I would say that:

-Maeglin was super creepy about Idril. Admittedly that isn't a capital crime.
-No-one had reason to believe he had been captured; he was just off on another long mining trip.
-He was probably breaking the law of the city already on those trips.
-He wasn't tortured into revealing the secrets of Gondolin, but gave them up in return for his safety and great rewards (usually rule of the city + Idril).
-At his death, he was actively attacking Idril and Earendil; Tuor's actions were in defense of his family.

I'm going to say yes, based on everything we know, he deserved to die.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Question for everyone: how on earth did Morgoth not realize that Gondolin must be in the one patch of land he can't get to?

We're told that before the Bragollach and Nirnaeth his spies couldn't pass beyond the borders of some elven territories, so it's possible that Gondolin lay somewhere beyond - but that wouldn't make much sense since Turgon was known to have a separate kingdom, and one that none of the other Elves knew about. On the other hand, there's this patch of mountains, that spies can't get through either because of the Eagles and other things. After the Nirnaeth it should have been obvious; the only question would be a suitable entrance. Morgoth really shouldn't have needed Hurin to unwittingly give away the general location. He should have known that already.

[Urwen]

I think he did realize, but he couldn't do anything about it (at least not till a certain someone *cough*m[a]eglin*cough* told him how to bypass that problem)

[Urwen]

Click me, please.....

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Click me, please.....

Pretty please?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Question for everyone: how on earth did Morgoth not realize that Gondolin must be in the one patch of land he can't get to?

We're told that before the Bragollach and Nirnaeth his spies couldn't pass beyond the borders of some elven territories, so it's possible that Gondolin lay somewhere beyond - but that wouldn't make much sense since Turgon was known to have a separate kingdom, and one that none of the other Elves knew about. On the other hand, there's this patch of mountains, that spies can't get through either because of the Eagles and other things. After the Nirnaeth it should have been obvious; the only question would be a suitable entrance. Morgoth really shouldn't have needed Hurin to unwittingly give away the general location. He should have known that already.

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

I'm pretty sure people read up past the most recent comment. I certainly always do, and reply to anything that I feel I have something to say on. Given that your comment was a claim that Morgoth did know where Gondolin was, and my whole post was on the premise that he didn't, my only options for comments were 'I think you're wrong', or 'I think you're wrong and here's the reference to prove it'. Telling people flatly that they're wrong feels like stifling discussion, though.

For the record, though:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Doriath

Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved.

Morgoth only found out where Gondolin was when Hurin gave it away; then, yes, he needed a traitor to tell him the way in and prepare the way.

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

hS

[Huinesoron]

See above:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

EDIT: Response to a deleted post.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

Urwen, we read the responses from oldest to newest. It really doesn't matter who posted first. You don't have to have the last post on the thread to be seen.

I agree with you that he required help getting an army over the mountains, but I wonder more about where he thought Turgon could have been.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

i do agree about the Havens. Morgoth should have known where the Silmaril ended up, and it wouldn't have taken him much force to regain it.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

I would say: lots. Beleriand wasn't a particularly heavily-populated place. Turgon could have gone south - there's literally nothing south of Andram and east of the Nenning. He could have gone east - until the Sons of Feanor had to retreat, everything south of Estolad was pretty much empty. Heck, he could have stayed in Nevrast - apparently nobody ever bothered to go there until Tuor showed up! I really can't see any reason for Morgoth to assume that this lump of mountains, as opposed to any other (there's one above Ivrin, one at the joining of the Mountains of Mithrim and the Ered Wethrin, all the stuff around Rerir), simply had to be important.

My guess is that, until the Nirnaeth, Morgoth actually didn't think about Turgon at all. There might have been some murmuring about how the High King's son/brother (delete as temporally appropriate) vanished, but if some cowardly elf and his people chose to run off, what was that to the King of the World? It was only when Turgon suddenly appeared with a vast army that Morgoth had no idea was out there that he had to pay attention.

Morgoth knew that Turgon had appeared and retreated through the Pass of Sirion, which actually rules out a lot of places I've suggested. He probably picked up the name of Gondolin, and so knew that he was looking for the Hidden Rock (whatever that meant). And he knew that it could field at least ten thousand warriors. At that point... maybe he could have made the wild leap to 'hidden valley in the mountains'. But I still think 'somewhere off in the south' is more logical (like, say, the mouths of Sirion... )

hS

[Galadriel55]

The reason I ruled out a lot of places is 1) has to be where Morgoth's spies wouldn't see him - what keeps them from checking out all the other random lumps of rock? Nothing much, really; and 2) Turgon has to be close enough to be relevant. I mean sure, he could have even gone over the Ered Luin, but then he's less in the picture and less worrisome. He can't get into the play in time to change events; he has to be physically present on site to make a difference that would affect Morgoth.

(Again what no one realized is that Gondolin's importance was in making Earendil and not in their strength at all, but then no one has the same reader's knowledge as us, so they all assume that the way of defeating Morgoth must be through battle with him and through survival when battle is not possible).