Jacksonverse Elves during the War against the Balcoth

[Victariongreyjoy]

I know Gondor and the Eotheod was the main protaginists of the war, but in the movieverse, do you think Thranduil may perhaps assisted Men by sending a small squad lead by Legolas and Tauriel during the war? Because surely Thranduil did see the threat from the easterlings as very significant to his Woodland realm.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

I know Gondor and the Eotheod was the main protaginists of the war, but in the movieverse, do you think Thranduil may perhaps assisted Men by sending a small squad lead by Legolas and Tauriel during the war? Because surely Thranduil did see the threat from the easterlings as very significant to his Woodland realm.

Considering Jackson marched an army of elves a couple hundred miles through enemy-held territory filled with 10,000 orcs without anyone noticing, sure, why not. In Jackson's warped universe, Galadriel and Celeborn's forces obviously were not needed to battle the orkish invasion taking place from Dol Guldur that required a united Elven attack from Thranduil and Celeborn's armies to defeat (part of an all-encompassing Sauronian battle plan that included a related Easterling invasion of Dale/Erebor).

But hey, a bizarre premise deserves further bizarre extrapolation further back into history. Simple minds make no effort at nuance or big picture strategy, and simply throw any amount of crap on a wall, hoping something will stick.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

I know Gondor and the Eotheod was the main protaginists of the war, but in the movieverse, do you think Thranduil may perhaps assisted Men by sending a small squad lead by Legolas and Tauriel during the war? Because surely Thranduil did see the threat from the easterlings as very significant to his Woodland realm.

The key to this question has to be when Movie!Thranduil became an isolationist xenophobe. We know he was still paying homage to Thror in ?2770 (or at least, the year the Kingdom under the Mountain fell - I'm not sure if the timeline is attested on-screen), because there's that scene of him arriving, seeing Smaug, and going 'welp, I'm out, MOOSE AWAY!'. Said scene also tells us that he didn't like interacting with Thror's people - though that might be the sheer indignity of it.

The invasion of Calenardhon by the Balchoth took place in 2510, actually before Erebor was reoccupied in 2590. Does that mean Thranduil would be less grumpy about foreigners? Or more, because he hadn't yet had the (forced) contact with Dale and Erebor. We'd probably need to know whether he also paid homage to Thrain I and Thorin I to figure this out.

I only saw the Hobbit movies when they came out, so I find this one difficult to divine: is Thranduil a recent xenophobe, or is it a long-standing trait? We know he has bad experience with dragons, but that doesn't really answer the question. So, so - at least we can say that if he hates foreigners, he probably wouldn't lift a finger to help Gondor.

Things are a bit more interesting if he was less of a grump back in the days of the Balchoth. The Greenwood wasn't darkened then (we saw very clearly that Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Spiders all arrived simultaneously right at the start of the movies, brutally traumatising poor Sebastian), so the Elvenking's domain (at least in his head) probably extended right to the southern eaves - right on the border with the lands the Balchoth emerged from to attack Calenardhon

But... did Thranduil even have reason to hate them? We know that in the books, the Balchoth attacked with Orcish reinforcements, doing so only 50 years after Sauron's return to Dol Guldur; it seems reasonable to suppose a connection. But in the movies, Dol Guldur was still abandoned at the time of the attack. Might the Balchoth not have allied with the Orcs?

In fact, might they have been at peace with Thranduil? Oh, yes, they invaded Rhovanion as the Wainriders, were driven back, then invaded again as the Balchoth (this is the Movieverse, ambiguity can go to Pot, they're clearly the same people) - but so what? Some Men squabbled with some other Men - what is that to the King of Greenwood the Great? As long as the wine keeps flowing from Dorwinion (down in what's definitely Balchoth territory), they can do what they like.

So there's my answer, as overwrought and ludicrous as the situation demands: Thranduil would not aid Gondor (whose peasants scoff at the elves of Lorien) or the Eotheod (who keep intruding on the western parts of his domain) against the Balchoth (who sell him very lovely wine); he'd just sit tight and wait a few decades for it all to blow over.

hS

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Things are a bit more interesting if he was less of a grump back in the days of the Balchoth. The Greenwood wasn't darkened then (we saw very clearly that Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Spiders all arrived simultaneously right at the start of the movies, brutally traumatising poor Sebastian), so the Elvenking's domain (at least in his head) probably extended right to the southern eaves - right on the border with the lands the Balchoth emerged from to attack Calenardhon

But... did Thranduil even have reason to hate them? We know that in the books, the Balchoth attacked with Orcish reinforcements, doing so only 50 years after Sauron's return to Dol Guldur; it seems reasonable to suppose a connection. But in the movies, Dol Guldur was still abandoned at the time of the attack. Might the Balchoth not have allied with the Orcs?

In fact, might they have been at peace with Thranduil? Oh, yes, they invaded Rhovanion as the Wainriders, were driven back, then invaded again as the Balchoth (this is the Movieverse, ambiguity can go to Pot, they're clearly the same people) - but so what? Some Men squabbled with some other Men - what is that to the King of Greenwood the Great? As long as the wine keeps flowing from Dorwinion (down in what's definitely Balchoth territory), they can do what they like.hS

Did Sauron return to Dol Guldur in the beginning of the T.A? And the orcs that aided the Balcoth could come from Mordor or Gundabad?
I don't think it's plausible for Thranduil(movie)to have a secret deal or neutral with the easterlings. He definately would have sense that Sauron and dark forces were behind the sudden agressive invasion by men of Rhun, and knows the danger they bring to his Woodland Realm.
But anway, do you think after the Battle of Five Armies, Thranduil may be more willing to have more interaction with Rohan or Dol Amroth? Weren't the Swan Knights more friendly to the elves than Gondor?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Weren't the Swan Knights more friendly to the elves than Gondor?

No. They would have had no contact with Elves for centuries.

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No. They would have had no contact with Elves for centuries.

Thinking how much Jackson deviated from the books with the Hobbit, would it be possible to see Thranduil meeting up with Dol Amroth sometimes during the War of The Ring? Since they were omitted from ROTK, why not having them join forces with Woodland Realm fighting the orcs from Dol Guldur?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

All of Southern Mirkwood was under the control of the Necromancer, which means that having Thranduil come to the aid of Gondor vs the Balchoth pretty much doesn't work, unless they were to go by way of the Carrock and Lorien and come down from the north on the right bank (or swing around by way of Nearer Rhun!) Note that the Eotheod's passage was screened by Galadriel's mist, which implies that Dol Guldur was a very real threat even to swift-moving horsemen following Anduin, much less any Elves trying to move straight through the forest.

But if this is the Jacksonverse, then sure: have Legolas, Tauriel, Haldir, Elrond and Young Aragorn all turn up without explanation. Throw in Gandalf, and Bilbo's great^6 grandfather Pongo. Don't forget to have a dwarf to do pratfalls and belch.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Thinking how much Jackson deviated from the books with the Hobbit, would it be possible to see Thranduil meeting up with Dol Amroth sometimes during the War of The Ring? Since they were omitted from ROTK, why not having them join forces with Woodland Realm fighting the orcs from Dol Guldur?

Because they would have had to march right past Minas Tirith or right through Rohan to get there. Dol Amroth is south of the White Mountains, so unless your name happens to end with 'heir of Isildur', you can only get to Mirkwood by going one of those two ways.

I can't contrive any scenario which would lead the Prince of Dol Amroth to travel further than the distance to his nation's capital, in order to fight a less-important battle than the one happening in the Pelennor.