Isengard- Help Wanted!

[Inziladun]

After recently re-reading TTT, I was wondering about a relatively small bit of dialogue from the mouth of Saruman, directed at King Théoden when Gandalf confronted Saruman at Isengard.
After Théoden turned down flat Saruman's proposal of an alliance between himself and Rohan, Saruman became rather irate, and said to the king:

'Long ago I offered you a state beyond your merit and your wit. I have offered it again, so that those whom you mislead may clearly see the choice of roads.'

That is curious, especially in light of the fact that Théoden wants to come to Orthanc with Gandalf to 'speak with the enemy who has done me so much wrong'. That suggests Théoden had not actually spoken with Saruman before.

So what could Saruman have meant? What did he offer to Théoden, and how?

[Mithalwen]

Or it could mean that any communication was before Saruman had wronged Théoden, first by the wiles of Grima and then by the military assaults in which we know from Unfinished Tales that Théodred was specifically targeted. If Theodred, Eomer and Elfhelm hadn't taken matters into their own hands Rohan would probably have been in the hands of Saruman before Gandalf and co could intervene.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm with Mith, obviously (or so I always thought) it refers to some time much earlier on. In ages past, Saruman had the habit to visit newly crowned kings of Rohan, who knows if he did something similar with Théoden? Also, there probably were attempts (logical) as his ambitions progressed to make political alliances, or to get under his control the neighbouring powers, be it more directly (probably the case of lot of the folk from Dunland) or less directly (Rohan, later through Gríma). If Saruman had been actually able to slowly enlist Rohan to his cause, without having to battle it first, it would have made things much easier (starting already in the years of searching for the Ring near Anduin, but also later, plus eventually with, say, attack on Gondor or whatever).

Altogether, I also don't think Théoden's quote implies they haven't talked to each other before. It really just implies it didn't happen after Saruman revealed himself as the enemy. Another option is that they didn't actually talk face to face, but that Saruman's offer had, back then, the form of, say, a diplomatic letter. But I think it really rather makes sense that Saruman had once talked to Théoden in person, and now Théoden is saying that he would like to speak to the enemy (as opposed to the peaceful neighbour he used to know), after he has done him so much wrong.

[Faramir Jones]

I agree with what you said here, Legate:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Altogether, I also don't think Théoden's quote implies they haven't talked to each other before. It really just implies it didn't happen after Saruman revealed himself as the enemy. Another option is that they didn't actually talk face to face, but that Saruman's offer had, back then, the form of, say, a diplomatic letter. But I think it really rather makes sense that Saruman had once talked to Théoden in person, and now Théoden is saying that he would like to speak to the enemy (as opposed to the peaceful neighbour he used to know), after he has done him so much wrong.

We need to remember that it was only very recently before this parley that Saruman publicly revealed himself as an enemy, despite his long-laid plans, including wearing down Théoden such that his judgement is impaired, but not enough to make people suspicious.

It was on 10th July 3018 that Saruman revealed his true ambitions to Gandalf, and imprisoned him in Orthanc when he would not join him. Gandalf was not able to escape until 18th September, and to gain entrance to Edoras on 20th September, when he tried to alert Théoden and his people. It was on 25th February 3019 that the First Battle of the Fords of Isen took place, the first major battle of Saruman against Rohan, the same date the Fellowship camped at Parth Galen. The parley with Saruman took place on 5th March, two days after the Battle of the Hornburg, three days after the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Or it could mean that any communication was before Saruman had wronged Théoden, first by the wiles of Grima and then by the military assaults in which we know from Unfinished Tales that Théodred was specifically targeted. If Theodred, Eomer and Elfhelm hadn't taken matters into their own hands Rohan would probably have been in the hands of Saruman before Gandalf and co could intervene.

The problem with that interpretation is that Saruman himself speaks along the lines of Théoden.

'But you, Théoden Lord of the Mark of Rohan, are declared by your noble devices, and still more by the fair countenance of the House of Eorl. O worthy son of Thengel the Thrice-renowned! Why have you not come before, and as a friend? Much have I desired to see you, mightiest king of western lands, and especially in these latter years, to save you from the unwise and evil counsels that beset you!'

TTT The Voice of Saruman

That certainly gives the impression that Saruman had never seen Théoden in person.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That certainly gives the impression that Saruman had never seen Théoden in person.

I agree, I've always thought that Saruman had never met Théoden before.

I think the most likely situation is that which Legate mentioned - there were probably occasionally messages between Isengard and Edoras on this matter or that. I imagine them typically being initiated by Saruman when there was some situation in which it would be advantageous for him if Rohan was to do one thing or another. He would of course always phrase these messages as if it was in Rohan's best interest as well.

If Saruman had "long ago" offered Théoden a state beyond his "merit" and "wit" is it possible that perhaps at some point early in Théoden's reign, when Saruman was making more tentative steps towards becoming a Power, he sent such a message to Théoden? Saruman began to fortify Isengard in 2953 but didn't start communicating with Sauron until 3000, while Théoden became King of the Mark in 2980. It seems to fit rather neatly, although Appendix A states that Saruman's "designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil" even that early. Perhaps to an extent he hid them from himself as well.

Note that Thengel had been an ally of "Thorongil" and therefore would probably, like Ecthelion II, have been encouraged to trust in Gandalf rather than Saruman. Thorongil-Aragorn stopped adventuring in 2980 and presumably returned to the North, so he would not have been available to give the same counsel to Théoden, but it's possible that Thengel passed the advice on to his son at some point before his death.

It's possible that Saruman sent a message to Théoden proposing a more serious military alliance which Théoden refused, which caused Saruman to eventually resort to using Wormtongue to corrupt the will of the King. The Tolkien Gateway gives 3014 as the date when Théoden's health began to fail but I can't find that in the Appendices, can anyone confirm or deny that?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That certainly gives the impression that Saruman had never seen Théoden in person.

It really makes it sound it's more likely that way. But anyway, I would actually still disagree about dismissing it altogether, it does not really make it so that Saruman had never spoken to Théoden. Yes, "especially in these latter years" obviously implies that there had been also some earlier years during which Saruman had not seen Théoden, but there is no low-end limit to his proclamation. Saruman may be speaking, assumingly, in the context of last decade, last twenty years, or whatever. Actually - okay, this is fairly random idea, but now that it has occured to me - Saruman's presumed offer of "state beyond Théoden's merit" might have come even before his coronation. I know it's far-fetched, but nothing rules it out as a possibility: actually Zigur's mention of Thorongil brought this to my mind, and I acknowledge it'd be a terrible conspiracy theory, but what if there was even something like an offer from Saruman to young Théoden "Hello young prince, let's get rid of your father, banish those weird foreign Thorongils and Gandalfs and instead listen to me, and I will help you to ascend to the throne as the most brilliant and promising young king of Rohan"? (Of course, much more subtly delivered, but it wouldn't be impossible, would it? A typical plot we know from our world history, a foreign power helping the heir to the throne to ascend prematurely in exchange for shift of the country's foreign policy).

Not that I'd personally hold the opinion, but I like that idea.

As to the other possibility, that Saruman did actually never speak to Théoden in person, in that case I would think the offer would likely be something along the lines of the diplomatic note, like I mentioned, and possibly aiming towards the wording "let's team up, I will make you more powerful than Gondor, you can rule as far as Anduin Vales where your ancestors used to live (and you can then help me assure nobody but me searches the Anduin Vales in case certain Ring is still somewhere there, as a bonus)", possibly even: "hint hint, under me you could become the ruler of a great empire including former Gondor, for who needs Gondor?" Or something similar.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

It seems to fit rather neatly, although Appendix A states that Saruman's "designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil" even that early. Perhaps to an extent he hid them from himself as well.

Either that, or "evil" can be used broadly here, because if you want to establish alliance with Rohan, but effectively make it your puppet state and use it only as a weapon for your wars, then it certainly isn't "good" design.

[Mithalwen]

Not isn't the same as never though. It is still ambiguous. But I don't have enough access to texts to look further.