The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-01-2015, 07:37 PM   #1
The Mouth of Sauron
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
The Mouth of Sauron has just left Hobbiton.
Boats travelling up and down Anduin and Lorien's isolation.

In the Fellowship of the Ring Aragorn stated that light boats used to travel from Wilderland down to Osgiliath. Surely if they had, they would have sailed past Lorien and contact would have been made with the elves that lived there?

Yet the impression is given that there was little or no such contact throughout the Third Age.
The Mouth of Sauron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2015, 09:04 PM   #2
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron View Post
In the Fellowship of the Ring Aragorn stated that light boats used to travel from Wilderland down to Osgiliath. Surely if they had, they would have sailed past Lorien and contact would have been made with the elves that lived there?

Yet the impression is given that there was little or no such contact throughout the Third Age.
Men, like those of Rohan, treated Lothlorien superstitiously or even with fear. One might be aware that the Elves inhabited Lorien, but it's another thing altogether to visit such a perilous realm.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 02:38 AM   #3
mhagain
Wight
 
mhagain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
mhagain has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Never again shall there be any such league of Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the two kindreds are estranged.
(Council of Elrond)

It's not that contact wasn't possible, it's entirely down to the estrangement of Men and Elves. In the late Third Age the only real contact between Men and Elves (outside of isolated and special cases such as the Rangers) appears to have been that between Thranduil's realm and Lake-town.

So no, you haven't discovered a plot hole.
__________________
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.
mhagain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2015, 08:43 PM   #4
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhagain View Post
It's not that contact wasn't possible, it's entirely down to the estrangement of Men and Elves. In the late Third Age the only real contact between Men and Elves (outside of isolated and special cases such as the Rangers) appears to have been that between Thranduil's realm and Lake-town.
Actually, Men other than those of Dale seem to have had some measure of contact with Lórien Elves.

For one thing, Haldir noted that he knew the Common Speech because 'there are some of us still who go abroad for news and the watching of our enemies, and they speak the languages of other lands'. I further posit that Lórien had occasional encounters with Men from Gondor, based on Faramir's words to Frodo.

Quote:
'Yet there are among us still some who have dealing with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to Lórien, seldom to return.'
The Two Towers The Window On the West

I wouldn't think the intercourse was a common thing, but both Lórien and Gondor seem to have derived some benefit from it, else it would have stopped altogether.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2015, 03:53 AM   #5
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
I would second what Inzil said. Probably there would be occassions, rather limited to individuals, where the two kin would meet. I am imagining it kind of in the same way it was happening with the Hobbits and Elves, for instance (and after all, Hobbits are also Men, only Small). The local Bilbos and Frodos of Gondor meeting local Gildors who go to pilgrimages to the Elven harbours of old by the Bay of Belfalas (the traffic would be much bigger, of course, while they were still in use), and who knows, maybe even one weirdo local Farmer Maggot from Eastfold could make acquaintances with some Lórien patrols. But such cases would be rare, not a rule.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2015, 04:56 AM   #6
Zigűr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigűr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
Zigűr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigűr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Is it possible that the Woodmen and their kin who lived along the Anduin had some contact with the Elves of Lórien and/or Mirkwood?

And evidently the surviving Dúnedain of the North still had a very close relationship with the Elves (although that's the Elves of Rivendell, not of Lórien).

It seems it was in the south that there was the greatest estrangement, in Rohan and Gondor, which probably makes sense given the geographical separation.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.
Zigűr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2015, 08:14 AM   #7
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
Pitchwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Pitchwife is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Men, like those of Rohan, treated Lothlorien superstitiously or even with fear. One might be aware that the Elves inhabited Lorien, but it's another thing altogether to visit such a perilous realm.
Quite. The feelings of Men in the Third Age when they passed near Lórien are illustrated quite nicely by a passage from Cirion and Eorl..., (ii) The Ride of Eorl in UT:
Quote:
For when at last the host drew near to Dol Guldur, Eorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it, and then rode in within sight of Anduin. Many of the riders turned their eyes thither, half in fear and half in hope to glimpse from afar the shimmer of the Dwimordene, the perilous land that in legends of their people was said to shine like gold in the springtime. But now it seemed shrouded in a gleaming mist; and to their dismay the mist passed over the river and flowed over the land before them.

Eorl did not halt. 'Ride on!' he commanded. 'There is no other way to take. After so long a road shall we be held back from battle by a river-mist?'

As they drew nearer they saw that the white mist was driving bck the glooms of Dol Guldur, and soon they passed into it, riding slowly at first and warily; but under its canopy all things were lit with a clear and shadowless light, while to left and right they were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy.

'The Lady of the Golden Wood is on our side, it seems,' said Borondir.

'Maybe,' said Eorl. 'But at leastI will trust the wisdom of Felaróf. He scents no evil. [...]'
(emphasis mine)

As we see here they had some folklore about Lórien and were probably aware that it was Elvish land, but their yearning to catch a glimpse of its beauty was mingled with fear, and their first reaction to the spreading mist was dismay at being touched by Elven magic. Even when the mist proved beneficial to them only his horse's instinct convinced Eorl that it was indeed harmless. (Borondir, on the other hand, seems to have known a little better, as is to be expected from an Gondorian.)

I suppose any Men of Rohan or the North travelling on the Anduin by boat would have felt much the same: they would marvel at the Golden Wood and whisper some old tales to each other, maybe tell their children and grandchildren about it with some pride, but landing on the western shore and making contact with the Elves was a wholly different matter and restricted to few individuals.
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI
Pitchwife is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:59 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.