Question for the Sindarin experts: is Meril still valid?

[Orphalesion]

Heyo,

We all know that Tolkien kind of neglected to give names to a lot of the wives of the ancient Elf lords. Celebrimbor's wife has no name, Maglor's and Caranthir's wives have no names and neither does Orodreth's wife, the mother of Finduilas (and possibly Gil-Galad)....or does she?

A long while ago I have read somewhere in the HOMIE (I think it was the Shibboleth of Feanor? Not sure) that Tolkien tossed the idea around that Gil-Galad's mother was named "Meril" (Sindarin for "rose", at one point explicitly called the Elvish equivalent of the English name Rose).

Does anybody know if that is valid still from a linguistic standpoint? Does the word "Meril" fit into Sindarin as it existed at the time of Tolkien's death?

It would be nice to have a few more female names in the genealogies.

Curiously it would also make the house of Finarfin, the only house in which all members of the first age (except Gil-Galad) have named spouses or love interests (Amarië, Eldalotë/Edhellos, Andreth, Celeborn, Gwindor, Turin and Meril)

I really wish Tolkien had been more generous with giving the Elf Lords wives and daughters. It seems like he made attempts sometimes (Findis and Irimë, once writing that Ar-Feiniel was "the first daughter of Fingolfin", but he abandoned them rather quickly, ven all three of the nameless Fëanorian ladies get left behind in Aman) It seems a lot of the time Elf women are only mentioned when a Mortal Man needs a love interest, if Galadriel hadn't shown up in the Lotr and needed a back story, we wouldn't have had any female member of the House of Finwe who isn't there just to be wife, mother or love interest of somebody

Which is a shame because Tolkien could write women just as compelling as men if he set his mind to it as Galadriel and Morwen prove. Even the female you have to piece together from the HOME are often compelling, compare for a moment Miriel and Nerdanel to rather pale male characters like Fingon or Angrod whom not even the HoME improve much.

[Formendacil]

If it is from Shibboleth, then it's almost certainly acceptable Sindarin, since the Shibboleth is quite late--mid-1960s, though I'm hesitant to quote a year, but even if it were from the 1950s, it would still be post-publication of the LotR, and if my memory is correct, it would be contemporaneous with the 2nd Edition of the LotR, in which Tolkien did tinker a bit with the Elvish in the book--though my impression (I am not a Sindarin expert) is anything post-LotR is probably going to hold sufficient water. It's when you start going into the pre-LotR versions of things, especially back at the Book of Lost Tales end, that you run into problems.

(That said, I have no memory of Gil-galad's mother's name in the Shibboleth, but it's been a while since I read that volume... I'm rereading the Book of Lost Tales right now, so "Meril" reminds me more of the Queen of Tol Eressëa in that text--but given how many other very early names stayed in circulation (Beren, Manwë, Ulmo, etc) or came back (Legolas), it would not surprise me to see Tolkien reusing the name--and if it had that much staying power in his mind, I really wouldn't worry about it being acceptable Sindarin.)

EDIT: Digging out my copy of The Peoples of Middle-earth (the HoME volume including the Shibboleth), I don't see "Meril" in the index--and the HoME indices are generally excellent. A cursory, but I think accurate, skim of the text, especially the commentary towards the end where Christopher Tolkien goes through the history of Gil-galad's parentage (or lack thereof) reveals nothing either. If Meril was ever put forth as the name of his mother, it would not seem to have been the Shibboleth. My suspicion is it might be fanon, though of a deft sort.

[Orphalesion]

^ Yup looked again myself (don't have the HoME anymore, lost all but the first two volumes :-( ) the name Meril for Gil-Galad's mother is not complete fanon, according to an old thread on Barrow-Downs it appears in the Quenta Silmarillion version as presented in Volume 5 of the HoME (the Shaping of Middle Earth) which, as far as I can gather from the names, seems to be very contemporary to the first edition of the Lord of the Rings.

In it Meril is the wife of Felagund and mother of Gil-Galad (and briefly of Galadriel and possibly Gildor).

So darn, it is at the very least, very very dubious if the name and word would have survived in Tolkien's final conception, which is a shame because even aside form providing another named wife, it would also provide an Elvish name for roses, which is always useful.

[jallanite]

Meril (no English translation given here) appears in the current (Post–Lord of the Rings) version of the Silmarillion as the wife of Felagund and mother of Gilgalad in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), page 242. I don’t find her in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4) at all.

Christopher Tolkien notes:

Felagund’s wife Meril has not been named before, nor any child of his, and this is the first appearance of Gil-galad from The Lord of the Rings.

Meril was also the Sindarin name given to Rose Cotton in Tolkien’s Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings in Aragorn’s letter to Sam and his family. See Sauron Defeated (HoME 9) and a transcription of the English letter at http://theshirefellowship.net/index....topic&pid=9881 . In the first version of the letter Meril appears as Beril, but in later versions as Meril. In the Book of Lost Tales the name Meril seems to mean ‘Flower’ in general, not ‘Rose’ in particular.

I don’t see any reason to think that Tolkien ever rejected the meaning ‘rose’ for Sindiarin meril. But, as usual, one never knows. Phonetically I see no problem with Meril as a Sindarin name in Tolkien’s late conception.

[Orphalesion]

Ah, awesome thanks!

So it is pretty validated. That's cool. I got the information of her appearing in HoME V here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/archive...hp?t-4470.html

[Galin]

I think Tar-Elenion meant: in an early alteration to a text from HME V, not in the text from HME V itself, although granted even if so I can see the reason for confusion. Anyway you did say HME V but gave the name of HME IV, throwing Jallanite off I'm guessing.

I think the name Meril is a bit dubious for the mother of Gil-galad, considering that in another note (p. 242, War of the Jewels) Tolkien refers to Felagund's wife [this note was struck out, although not necessarily due to the lack of a name here] and in yet another, he leaves a blank space for Inglor's wife's name.

The alteration with the name Meril is said to be made 'much earlier' than certain other alterations CJRT gives regarding this chapter -- in any case it doesn't appear in the early typescript, and is earlier than the revisions made to the LQ2 typescript. We don't know if the blank space version is the latest of the three references noted here, as the dating seems a bit questionable in general.

Anyway we can add the note from 1965 (reproduced in The Shibboleth of Feanor at least), where Gil-galad's mother is not named but is noted as a Sindarin lady from the North.

Although none of that necessarily means Meril as a name in general was abandoned. It seemed to be on the Qenya side of things in BOLT, but apparently was Noldorin or Sindarin enough for the King's Letter, and Sindarin for this alteration to QS.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Heyo,

We all know that Tolkien kind of neglected to give names to a lot of the wives of the ancient Elf lords. Celebrimbor's wife has no name, Maglor's and Caranthir's wives have no names and neither does Orodreth's wife, the mother of Finduilas (and possibly Gil-Galad)....or does she?

A long while ago I have read somewhere in the HOMIE (I think it was the Shibboleth of Feanor? Not sure) that Tolkien tossed the idea around that Gil-Galad's mother was named "Meril" (Sindarin for "rose", at one point explicitly called the Elvish equivalent of the English name Rose).

Does anybody know if that is valid still from a linguistic standpoint? Does the word "Meril" fit into Sindarin as it existed at the time of Tolkien's death?

It would be nice to have a few more female names in the genealogies.

Curiously it would also make the house of Finarfin, the only house in which all members of the first age (except Gil-Galad) have named spouses or love interests (Amarië, Eldalotë/Edhellos, Andreth, Celeborn, Gwindor, Turin and Meril)

I really wish Tolkien had been more generous with giving the Elf Lords wives and daughters. It seems like he made attempts sometimes (Findis and Irimë, once writing that Ar-Feiniel was "the first daughter of Fingolfin", but he abandoned them rather quickly, ven all three of the nameless Fëanorian ladies get left behind in Aman) It seems a lot of the time Elf women are only mentioned when a Mortal Man needs a love interest, if Galadriel hadn't shown up in the Lotr and needed a back story, we wouldn't have had any female member of the House of Finwe who isn't there just to be wife, mother or love interest of somebody

Which is a shame because Tolkien could write women just as compelling as men if he set his mind to it as Galadriel and Morwen prove. Even the female you have to piece together from the HOME are often compelling, compare for a moment Miriel and Nerdanel to rather pale male characters like Fingon or Angrod whom not even the HoME improve much.

Yes, I love the take in your post. There were truly some wonderful stories and hidden accounts of Lore in the lost womanly lineages. I'd have very much loved a lot more on many of the famous houses, though as you point out, Tolkien did bring us some very moving womanly heroes.

Ivriniel, my Avatar has Imrahil as a descendant. Gilmith (star mist), a sister of the long gone forebear of Imrahil has stirred my curiosity deeply, at times. We never discovered if she had progeny or who they were, and what fate or legacy they brought us.

Aredhel - on some days, evokes antipathy and vomitronic tendencies (all that imagery of 'flowing white veil-y/teal-y wisps on her hunting horse rides in Valinor didn't work for me), but on others, I love her as a great hero of the Noldor. I'd especially love to see Lines of the Vanyar and womanly lineages of those, and 'which witch was which' at the battle when Beleriand was broken.

Cheers

PS: on some days, (after perhaps one too many gin and tonics), I giggle with my long loved geek pals, imagining that Sauron, really, was just a very angry woman, suppressed by male dominant social order, and so, just got so jack about it all, that she dressed as a 'drag king' and 'tricked' everyone in Valinor into seeming male.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I agree. It is fun when a discussion opponent is too stubborn to admit he is wrong, but perhaps I should just not respond to William Cloud Hicklin at all.

Speak for yourself! I have conceded that Aelfwine appears in Laws and Customs. You, however, have yet to back away from your curious contention that the Annals and the "last three chapters" of the Later Silmarillion I postdate the publication of the Lord of the Rings, and this is not so.

Although, as will be seen in
Part One of this book, a potentially destructive doubt had
emerged before my father finished work on The Lord of the
Rings, nonetheless in the years that immediately followed its
completion he embarked on an ambitious remaking and en-
largement of all the Matter of the Elder Days, without departure
from the essentials of the original structure.
The creative power and confidence of that time is unmistak-
able. In July 1949, writing to the publishers on the subject of a
sequel to Farmer Giles of Ham, he said that when he had finally
achieved The Lord of the Rings 'the released spring may do
something'; and in a letter to Stanley Unwin of February 1950,
when, as he said, that goal had been reached at last, he wrote:
'For me the chief thing is that I feel that the whole matter is now
"exorcized", and rides me no more. I can turn now to other
things...' It is very significant also, I believe, that at that time he
was deeply committed to the publication of The Silmarillion
and The Lord of the Rings 'in conjunction or in connexion' as a
single work, 'one long Saga of the Jewels and the Rings'.
But little of all the work begun at that time was completed.
The new Lay of Leithian, the new tale of Tuor and the Fall of
Gondolin, the Grey Annals (of Beleriand), the revision of the
Quenta Silmarillion, were all abandoned. I have little doubt that
despair of publication, at least in the form that he regarded as
essential, was the prime cause. The negotiations with Collins
to publish both works had collapsed.

Morgoth's Ring, vii

The evidence is clear that when The Lord of the Rings was at last
completed my father returned with great energy to the legends of the
Elder Days. He was working on the new version of the Lay of Leithian
in 1950 (III.330); and he noted (V.294) that he had revised the Quenta
Silmarillion as far as the end of the tale of Beren and Luthien on
10 May 1951. The last page of the later Tale of Tuor, where the
manuscript is reduced to notes before finally breaking off (Unfinished
Tales p. 56), is written on a page from an engagement calendar
bearing the date September 1951, and the same calendar, with dates in
September, October, and November 1951, was used for riders to Tuor
and the Grey Annals (the last version of the Annals of Beleriand and a
close companion work to the Annals of Aman, the last version of the
Annals of Valinor).

Morgoth's Ring, 3

Of the Annals of Aman, which I shall refer to throughout by the
abbreviation 'AAm', there is a good clear manuscript, with a fair
amount of correction in different 'layers'. Emendations belonging to
the time of composition, or soon after, were carefully made; and the
manuscript gives the impression of being a 'fair copy', a second text.
But while passages of drafting may have been lost, I very much doubt
that a complete 'first text' of the Annals existed (see further p. 121
note 17). The work undoubtedly belongs with the large development
and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father
undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3), and it
stands in close relationship to the revision at that time of the
corresponding parts of the Quenta Silmarillion (V.204-43, referred to
throughout as QS), the text that had been abandoned at the end of
1937.

Morgoth's Ring, 47

As with the Annals of Valinor (Aman) (p. 47), my father did not
begin revision of the Quenta Silmarillion as a new venture on blank
sheets, but took up again the original QS manuscript and the
typescript (entitled 'Eldanyare') derived from it (see V.199 - 201) and
covered them with corrections and expansions. As already seen (p. 3),
he noted that the revision had reached the end of the tale of Beren and
Luthien on 10 May 1951. The chapters were very differently treated,
some being much more developed than others and running to several
further texts.
An amanuensis typescript was then made, providing a reasonably
clear and uniform text from the now complicated and difficult
materials. This was made by the same person as made the typescript of
Ainulindale' D (p. 39) and seems to have been paginated continuously
on from it. I shall call this typescript 'LQ 1' (for 'Later Quenta 1', i.e.
'the first continuous text of the later Quenta Silmarillion'). It seems
virtually certain that it was made in 1951( - 2).

[...]

Finally [i.e. after the second (1958) series of amanuensis typescripts], my father turned to new narrative writing in the Matter of
the First Age before the Hiding of Valinor. The first chapter, Of the
Valar, much altered at this time, became separated off from the
Quenta Silmarillion proper under the title Valaquenta; while the sixth
chapter, Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor (numbered 4 in
QS, V.227), and a part of the seventh, Of the Flight of the Noldor
(numbered 5 in QS), were very greatly enlarged and gave rise to new
chapters with these titles:
Of Finwe and Miriel
Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
Of the Darkening of Valinor
Of the Rape of the Silmarils
Of the Thieves' Quarrel
This new work exemplifies the 'remoulding' to which my father
looked forward in the [December 1957] letter to Rayner Unwin cited above. It repre-
sents (together with much other writing of a predominantly specula-
tive nature) a second phase in his later work on The Silmarillion. The
first phase included the new version of the Lay of Leithian, the later
Ainulindale, the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals, the later Tale
of Tuor, and the first wave of revision of the Quenta Silmarillion,
much of this work left unfinished. The years 1953 - 5 saw the
preparation and publication of The Lord of the Rings; and there seems
reason to think that it was a good while yet before he turned again to
The Silmarillion, or at least to its earlier chapters.

Morgoth's Ring, 141-42

After much experimentation the plan I have
followed is based on this consideration: seeing that a great deal of the
development can be ascribed to a relatively short time (the '1951
revision'), it seems best to take LQ 1, marking the end of that stage, as
the 'common text'. But while I print LQ 1 in full as it was typed (as far
as Chapter 5: Chapters 6 - 8 are differently treated), I also include in
the text the corrections and expansions made to it subsequently,
indicated as such. This gives at once a view of the state of the work in
both LQ 1, at the end of the 'first phase', and in LQ 2, at the beginning
of the 'second phase' some seven years later.

Morgoth's Ring, 143

6 OF THE SILMARILS AND THE DARKENING
OF VALINOR.

The textual history of this chapter is entirely different from that of any
of the preceding ones. In the first stage of revision, only few and slight
changes were made to the QS manuscript (the old QS typescript text
having stopped at the end of the previous chapter), and these were
taken up into LQ 1. But after LQ 1 had been made, my father returned
to the old manuscript, and on the verso pages began a new version -
rather oddly, paginating it on from the end of the QS typescript, and
retaining the chapter number 4. This was clearly an element in the
revision of 1951.

[...]

A comparison will show that the new writing in LQ stands in close
relation to the corresponding part of AAm. New elements in LQ
appear also in AAm, such as Feanor's mother Miriel ($78, p. 92), the
devising of letters by Rumil and Feanor ($$80, 83), or the placing of
the making of the Silmarils after the release of Melkor (p. 104, $92).
There are constant similarities of wording and many actual identities
of phrase (notably in the encounter of Feanor with Melkor at
Formenos, LQ $54, AAm $102).
Can precedence be established between the two? It is scarcely
possible to demonstrate it one way or the other... I think in fact that the two
texts were closely contemporary.

Morgoth's Ring, 184, 191

(II) THE SECOND PHASE.

An acute problem of presentation arose in the treatment of the late
expanded version of Chapter 6 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of
Valinor (see pp. 142, 184 ff.)... For this reason I have divided this part
of the book into two sections, and give here separately the late
narrative versions of Chapters 1, 6, and a part of 7 together with the
essay on the Eldar. To date these writings (and those given in Part
Four) with any real precision seems impossible on the evidence that I
know of, but such as there is points clearly in most cases to the late
1950s and not much later (for detailed discussion see p. 300).

Morgoth's Ring, 199

Note on Dating.

It is convenient to collect here the evidence, such as it is, bearing on the
date of this late rewriting, and the texts associated with it.
I have mentioned that in a letter of December 1957 my father told
Rayner Unwin that it was his intention to 'get copies made of all
copyable material', with a view to 'remoulding' The Silmarillion; and I
have suggested that the amanuensis typescript LQ 2 of The Silmaril-
lion and that of the Annals of Aman, which were made on the same
typewriter and probably belong to the same time, may therefore be
tentatively ascribed to about 1958 (see pp. 141 - 2).
If this dating is accepted for the moment, then the annals inserted
into the manuscript of AAm concerning the death of Miriel, the
'Doom of Manwe concerning the espousals of the Eldar', and the
marriage of Finwe to Indis must have preceded 1958 or belong to that
year, since they appear in the typescript of AAm as typed (p. 101 notes
1 and 4, p. 127, $120); while the rider FM 1 to LQ concerning Finwe
and Miriel is certainly contemporary with the AAm insertions
(p. 205). The story of Finwe and Miriel in the manuscript (A) of Laws
and Customs among the Eldar certainly followed FM 1, but the two
texts were probably close in time (p. 233). It is thus notable that in the
letter written by my father in October 1958 (see pp. 267, 270) this
story and its implications were in the forefront of his mind.
The second text of the story of Finwe and Miriel (FM 2, p. 254)
intended for inclusion in The Silmarillion very probably preceded the
typescript (B) of Laws and Customs among the Eldar, since this latter
was typed on a new typewriter with a rather distinctive typeface. Also
typed on this machine were the Valaquenta and the texts of the late
rewriting of Chapter 6( - 7). The first letter of my father's that I know
of to be typed on the new typewriter is dated January 1959.
There is no actual proof of date in any of this, of course, but taken
together it points clearly, I think, to the late 1950s as the time when
the story of Finwe and Miriel arose and Laws and Customs among the
Eldar was written.

Morgoth's Ring, 300

Given that you have cited some of these very passages, it is startling indeed that you have somehow managed to extract from them something other than what they plainly say: that the Annals and the 'first phase" revision of QS, together with much else, were produced in a great surge of creativity 1949-52; in fact the very reason that CT divided the chapter "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" into two 'phases' was precisely to separate this material from the later matter composed circa 1958 arising from the new conception of the House of Finwe.