Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
08-08-2014, 03:51 AM | #1 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
|
Ancalagon the Black
A couple of questions regarding this dragon (and some other stuff):
I. Gandalph said than not even Ancalagon could melt One Ring. But... 1) how could he know for sure? 2) while One Ring is ther greates Sauron creation, Ancalagon was arguably the greatest Melkor creation. And Melkor >>> Sauron in terms of power/ II. How could half elf, even in airship, kill the dragon who made Valar army flee and was so huge that broke several mountains when fall? And giant eagles... I doubt that they were more powerful than felbeasts, yet somehow managed to take down ancient, most powerful dragons (maybe they swarmed them though). III. Why was Gandalph so sure that Smaug was dangerous because we would be willing to align with Sauron? Sauron in that time was not really strong, he could not otder dragon not being his master, and Smauh hardly would be interested in anything Sauron could offer to him (since he was more than happy to sleep in cave full of treasures). IV. Why did Melkor lose? I mean, it was obvious that he should lose being a bad gut, but still... what led to his fall in War of Wrath? What strategical/tactical mistakes hi commited in his conquest of Arda? Overspread forces, relied too much on quantity, something else?.. |
08-08-2014, 05:35 AM | #2 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
Eärendil cannot be dismissed simply as an half elf as if he were a lesser creature. He is the scion of arguably the noblest and most valiant lines of Elves and men, he has a Silmaril, and he is instrument of divine will within the cosmology of Arda. Ancalagon is greatest of dragons. But I think he had more than met his match. Anyone on foot is going to be at a major disadvantage from aerial assault. Ancalagon's size would be a disadvantage in a dogfight against a nimbler aircraft.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
08-08-2014, 07:47 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
|
1. I believe when Gandalf says "nor was there any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring," I would argue that he is speaking figuratively. He observes that "dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power" but the One Ring, strictly speaking, is not one of the Rings of Power per se but rather a related artefact with similar but not identical properties. The same is true of the Elven-Rings. By saying not even Ancalagon could destroy it, I think it's an elaborate way of saying "it's indestructible (save at Mount Doom)." Note Gandalf's caveat about why Ancalagon could not destroy it: "for that was made by Sauron himself." It was not in the nature of the One Ring to be destroyed in that fashion. It was, after all, "a thing of surpassing potency." (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
Just skipping over 2 and 3 for a bit, the answer to the "Melkor>Sauron" question lies in the answer to: 4. Why was Morgoth defeated in the War of Wrath? The answer, I would argue, is that it is because by the end of the First Age his power was spent. Morgoth "squandered his strength in violence and tyranny" (Valaquenta) and was best understood as "a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents." (Morgoth's Ring) Morgoth's power was diffuse: in the shadow corrupting Arda, in his extremely large number of servants, and in the vast projects of war and industry in which his realm was occupied. By the end of the First Age, many of his greatest servants, like Gothmog and Glaurung, were dead, and despite overall victory against the Noldor vast armies under his control had been destroyed. Melkor has originally been very great indeed, and he was still able to muster at the very end a weapon - Ancalagon's dragons - that was so powerful it could drive back the Host of the Valar, which was probably composed mostly of Vanyar, who were extremely mighty in themselves. But when that failed he had nothing left. Morgoth might have waited and recovered his power, but in his endless campaigns of war against his enemies there was never time. I think this also explains why the One was indestructible even by Morgoth's most powerful servant. Unlike Morgoth, who partitioned his power everywhere, Sauron concentrated it in this one object. Of course it seems that by the end of the Third Age Sauron had been forced to start spending what remained of his own power in the same way, even just to manifest a body for himself, having lost two in the space of about a hundred years at the end of the Second Age. I think Mithalwen has got 2 covered, so I'll end with: 3. Smaug being "used" by Sauron doesn't necessarily mean actually having Smaug in his army (although Gandalf nonetheless evidently considered it a possibility). Sauron was not "not really strong" during Smaug's time. He was very strong - not in the West perhaps, but Rhûn and Harad were under his sway, and while he may not have found his Ring, his enemies had not found it either. He had nonetheless corrupted Mirkwood and infested the Misty Mountains and the Grey with Orcs (the War of the Dwarves and Orcs halted this, but not indefinitely). But it comes back to this issue of areas under control. Gandalf "was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect." The point was not even using Smaug as a weapon as such, but rather that as long as Smaug was there any defence against invasion from Rhûn would be impractical. The chief threat (fortunately averted in the actual war) was that Sauron would be able to unite forces from Dol Guldur and Rhûn, conquer Rhovanion and the Misty Mountains, and destroy the remaining refuges of the Elves. That's how I see it, at least. Crossed with Inzil but I believe we've drawn complementary conclusions!
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
08-08-2014, 09:07 AM | #4 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
|
Thank you for answers!
1. But Orodruin was hardly "more powerful being" than Sauron, and its flame was hardly hotter than that of Ancalagon... yet it managed to melt One Ring just because "it was forged there" And were Nazgûl really less powerful than the Istari? If so, it is strange that Gandalph, for example, never really attempted to destroy them... You may say that he was forbidden to use greatest part of his power - yet he used it against Balrog... 2. Even is airship was much smaller, it is hard to believe that it could withstand massive amount of flame (and Ancalagon was thre greates living flamethrower ever, no doubt) during their loong battle, yet alone penetrate his armour (remember how tough was Glaurung scale). Well... I guess it is more of legend than militray chronicle after all) 4. But why he concentrated so hard on building orcish armies (orcs, even though they were created specifically for war, were bad warriors - took horrible casualties even when thyy did manage to beat elves with the help of Balrogs/etc.)? He did not seem to pay much attention to quality (did trolls ever do something impressive? No other formidable monsters were created...except Balrogs which could not be "mass produced" though) as well, until it was too late. Hmm. P.S. Is it mentioned anywhere precisely whether Valar themselves fought in War of Wrath or not? |
08-08-2014, 01:13 PM | #5 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Quote:
|
|
08-08-2014, 03:27 PM | #6 | |||||||||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
|||||||||||||||
08-08-2014, 05:19 PM | #7 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
|
Did Ancalagon the Black ever exist? Gandalf said to Frodo, ''Nor ever was there such a dragon''.
|
08-09-2014, 03:47 AM | #8 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
Quote:
Don't forget that Sauron himself was literally hot, much hotter than a normal house fire such at Bag End (which is not without its dangers). That couldn't even warm the ring but it remained hot for quitesome timeafter removal from Sauron's hand and the implication from Isildur's scroll is that Gil-galad was pretty much incinerated by contact with Sauron. So while I don't want to disparage Ancalagon, I don't agree with you.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
|
08-09-2014, 07:06 AM | #9 |
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
|
Not likely to forget that.
__________________
He bit me, and I was not gentle. |
08-09-2014, 12:51 PM | #10 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Gandalf was forbidden to match power against power versus Sauron. The Balrog was not in Sauron's control, and was out of the ken of all the Fellowship but Gandalf; therefore, in order to assure the Fellowship continued their quest, Gandalf alone met this danger from the 1st Age.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
08-09-2014, 01:12 PM | #11 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
Balrogs as Maia are of the same order of beings as Gandalf, and indeed Sauron himself. Nazgul well they have a devolved power and some major weaknesses eg being water funks. Glorfindel is more than a match for half of them together and he isn't a Maia.... though quite possibly the greatest of the Eldar would equal or exceed some Maia in inherent power. The main weapon of the Nazgul is fear...and surprise..and a fanatical devotion to Sauron of course
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
12-11-2014, 02:19 PM | #12 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
|
One last question.
What do you think would have happened, had Melkor won the last great batlle of War of Wrath? |
08-08-2014, 07:38 AM | #13 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Welcome, Aster!
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|||
|
|