Elven Characteristics

[Lissë]

Hello, unfortunately I do not own the HoME. I would like to ask if there is any passage which says that elves are more slender than humans and that they're beardless. I think in the Lost Tales there is a passage where the elves of Gondolin are astonished at Tuors deep voice. Does anyone else know this passage? Did Tolkien imagine elves with higher voices than humans? Thank you!

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Lissë

Hello, unfortunately I do not own the HoME. I would like to ask if there is any passage which says that elves are more slender than humans and that they're beardless. I think in the Lost Tales there is a passage where the elves of Gondolin are astonished at Tuors deep voice. Does anyone else know this passage? Did Tolkien imagine elves with higher voices than humans? Thank you!

Technically, elves are NOT beardless. It's just that elves don't start growing facial hair until they reach the third stage of thier life (what would be analogous to old age) and that takes so long that by that point in thier lives, most elves have long since sailed for the west (or in other words, if you wanted to see a lot of bearded elves, you'd probably have to go looking around in Aman.). Cirdan, the lord of the Grey Havens, is pretty much the only elf still in residence in ME at the time of LOTR who is of such and age and has such a beard. Mention is also made of one elf who started growing a beard early, in his second stage of life, but this is generally regarded as a unique occurance.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lissë

(...) I think in the Lost Tales there is a passage where the elves of Gondolin are astonished at Tuors deep voice. Does anyone else know this passage? Did Tolkien imagine elves with higher voices than humans? Thank you!

I don't think The Book of Lost Tales is the best reference for how Tolkien ultimately imagined his Elves. JRRT does note that the Gnomes were slender here, but also small...

'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there. Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe.'

JRRT, The Book of Lost Tales, The Fall of Gondolin

It's also noted that the Noldoli that came forth to see Tuor marvelled at his stature and gaunt limbs. At the moment I'm not sure about slenderness but I think maybe the Elves of the Lost Tales were notably shorter than they would later become, especially considering some old descriptions, including:

Nuin's words to Tu on the stature of the sleepers in the vale of Murmenalda are curious. In A is added: 'Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now. As the power of Men has grown the fairies have dwindled and Men waxed somewhat.' Other early statements indicate that Men and Elves were originally of very similar stature, and that the diminishing in that of the Elves was closely related to the coming of, and the dominance of, Men.

Nuin's words are therefore puzzling, especially since in A they immediately preceded the comment on the original similarity of size; for he can surely only mean that the sleepers in Murmenalda were very large by comparison with the Elves. That the sleepers were in fact children, not merely likened in some way to children, is made clear in D: 'Nuin finds the Slumbrous Dale (Murmenalda) where countless children lie'

Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Lost Tales

Nuin had said...

'(...) nor any the more when Nuin made an end of his tale, telling of all he saw there -- and methought,' said he, 'that all who slumbered there were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves.'

The concept of the Elves and Men being of like height -- because Men were smaller 'back then' and Elves taller -- appears in the Lay of Turin, but when we get to the 'early Silmarillions' and Silmarillion-related texts of the 1930s we seem to move to simpler comparisons between Men and Elves -- that is, they are of like height, with Men somewhat taller (especially the Hadorians), but without the comparative reference to the stature of Men in earlier times versus 'now'.

And then again there are even later references to Elven height, compared to Men or Numenoreans.

I think the external chronology [when Tolkien wrote what text] is important here, even if it doesn't necessarily answer all our questions.

[Lissë]

@Alfirin: Thank you!
@Galin: Oh no, now I'm even more confused! I always imagined elves taller than humans. So actually we do not know what Tolkien thought towards the end of his life, and even that would have been transitory. I guess I'll just go with my own imagination. Thank you!

[mhagain]

In the Grey Annals we have this statement for year 422:

The men of Beor were dark or brown of hair, but fair of face, with grey eyes; of shapely form, having courage and endurance, yet they were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru, ready in mind, bold and steadfast.

I believe that the remark about the "people of Hador" is intended to be by comparison to the "men of Beor" and not to the Noldor here, but it really can be read either way.

Quendi and Eldar has the following:

In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes

So what applies to the Noldor also applies in general to the Sindar.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by mhagain

In the Grey Annals we have this statement for year 422:



I believe that the remark about the "people of Hador" is intended to be by comparison to the "men of Beor" and not to the Noldor here, but it really can be read either way.

Quendi and Eldar has the following:



So what applies to the Noldor also applies in general to the Sindar.

The Sindar were definitely shorter than the Noldor. A tall Sindarin elf like Celeborn was the same height as Galadriel. Of course there are exceptions.

I would imagine the elves in general were tall and wiry. Closer to the Aragorn build than Boromir.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lissë

@Alfirin: Thank you!
@Galin: Oh no, now I'm even more confused! I always imagined elves taller than humans. So actually we do not know what Tolkien thought towards the end of his life, and even that would have been transitory. I guess I'll just go with my own imagination. Thank you!

No, later Tolkien consistently portrays Elves as being tall. I think the main point Galin was making is that you can't just blend together everything the man wrote in his life and expect it to all add up. "The Book of Lost Tales" is a very early and, if you like, "primitive" version of things.

Anyway- welcome to the Downs!

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lissë

@Galin: Oh no, now I'm even more confused! I always imagined elves taller than humans. So actually we do not know what Tolkien thought towards the end of his life, and even that would have been transitory. I guess I'll just go with my own imagination. Thank you!

Oh I didn't mean that we don't have much later, general descriptions from JRRT, just that The Book of Lost Tales is rather early stuff.

In '1968 or later', according to a text called Of Dwarves And Men we have:

'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

However another description reads:

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107, entry 'a tall Elf'

Anyway, both texts are late. Another (seemingly) late note says that Celeborn was held by the Lindar of Valinor to be tall: '... but the Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.' (this note is mentioned in the same section as the following on Galadriel). In yet another late note (Appendix, Numenorean Linear Measures, Unfinished Tales) Galadriel is noted as six foot four. And in The Lord of the Rings it was said concerning Galadriel and Celeborn: 'Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord;...'

There is also (now) variant text concerning Elendil the Tall -- well, I consider it variant from Unfinished Tales anyway. 'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

longer version...

'the Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man..., probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, not much shorter, (say 6 ft. 4).'

Tolkien Papers, Bodleian Library, Oxford

That's not meant to include every reference, nor am I certain that every reference was written with the same conception in mind.

But there's some relatively late citations; and much later than The Book of Lost Tales anyway

[Galin]

Didn't see your post earlier Nerwen, but yes you are correct about what I meant.

[Lissë]

Thank you so much