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12-29-2013, 05:40 PM | #1 |
Newly Deceased
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Sauron's name
I read somewhere recently, not sure of the source, that before Sauron became evil as such, he had the name of Mairon, does anybody know if this is the case?
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12-29-2013, 06:50 PM | #2 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I'm not aware of any canonical reference to that name. The name Sauron, "The Abhorred", was given by the Elves obviously after his allegiance to Morgoth, and if they had a name for him in his unfallen state, I haven't seen it.
Edit: Wikipedia does cite this source for the Mairon name, said to mean "The Admirable", but again, I'm not cognizant of a canonical citation.
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12-29-2013, 06:59 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The Lord of the Rings wikia says that the name was in Tolkien's notes, but never in any of his published works.
I can't find a source stating that it was actually found in his notes. I would imagine that Christopher Tolkien would have included it somewhere in the later publishings. Oh, well.
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12-29-2013, 07:14 PM | #4 |
Gruesome Spectre
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If Tolkien did have it somewhere in notes, I still wouldn't put much stock in it. Other things in "notes" were to have Bilbo be the main character in LOTR, and for Legolas and Gimli to leave the Fellowship and head home after Boromir's death.
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12-29-2013, 07:20 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Oh I don't know, if it's not contradicted by anything written later I'm willing to give it the time of day personally. I mean, it's not like trying to say Sauron was also Tevildo the Cat-Lord or something, is it? Or even that his name was Thû.
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12-29-2013, 07:42 PM | #6 |
Gruesome Spectre
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Thû for Sauron at least appears in published work as collected by Christopher Tolkien, and I'm unaware that the same could be said for Mairon.
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12-29-2013, 07:09 PM | #7 |
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Tolkien Gateway has a larger article about the issue of the journal in question. I belief we can be certain it's written by Tolkien himself, and I think we can assume it's written after the LotR first came out, seeing those notes are material to study the becoming of the second edition. But I'm not sure either where to place it in the hierarchy of the canon. Good reading material when I've got enough time on my hands.
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12-29-2013, 07:03 PM | #8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
I've always quite liked the idea that Sauron went from being "Admirable" to "Abomination."
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12-30-2013, 12:31 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Those Elves... always labeling stuff.
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12-30-2013, 02:17 PM | #10 |
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I don't like so much to speculate things not written by the professor, we have what we have as a mythology. In this case we have to note that both Melkor/Morgoth and Mairon/Sauron had turn to evil long ago (in the case of Sauron is speculative) the Elves awake. So we can say what we want, for example that the other Valar describe both as mighty and admirable before their fall. But Melko(r) did exist as a developed character in the original conception and Sauron as Sauron (not Tevildo or Thû) was developed as character in TLOTR. So Tolkien had to create a "past" for him.
But, as I said before, is speculate in a mythology as it stands, being from the point of view of the Elves (earlier), or mannish (later). Greetings |
12-30-2013, 03:59 PM | #11 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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But that still doesn't help resolve the Mouth of Sauron problem--- set up by Aragorn's observation at Amon Hen that the dead Orcs bearing a white S-rune must be Saruman's because Sauron neither used white nor permitted "his true name" to be used.
(second continuity error- Gorbag's Orcs from Minas Morgul did in fact use white)
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12-30-2013, 04:03 PM | #12 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Note- "Words, Phrases and Passages" aka "Nomenclature" aka "Guide to the Names" etc. ought to be considered 'published' and thus canonical, as Tolkien provided a copy to A&U so that they in turn could give copies to foreign translators.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
04-17-2014, 06:54 AM | #13 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
... Nomenclature/Guide to the Names I do consider to be 'nearly published' by the author and thus high on the canonical shelving, but Words Phrases And Passages[WPP] is a different animal, no? Did Tolkien provide copies of WPP too? It doesn't seem very ready for that, at least in all parts. Anyway I note how in WPP Tolkien changes his mind about the derivation of Sauron, for example: Quote:
Did Tolkien mean 'No' for everything he had just written, including the digression on Mairon? Mairon doesn't hail from the base SAWA- in any case, so I would say... ... maybe, yes... or simply 'no' |
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12-30-2013, 04:12 PM | #14 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
A general ban on his troops and slaves saying that name could have stemmed from a "Big Brother" like attempt to be an impersonal, unapproachable, godlike Force rather than a creature with possible faults. Well, maybe old Strider just didn't know everything. Perhaps he was thinking on;y of the Red Eye as a badge, and didn't know different assignments for Orcs might have carried other devices.
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12-30-2013, 04:27 PM | #15 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Or bonus Homerus dormitat. I suspect that T's thought when he wrote Aragorn's statement was that the epithet the Elves considered his "true" (i.e. their) name - Sauron/Gorthaur "the detestable" - was an insult that the Dark Lord naturally would have resented and never used, just like nobody I'm sure ever called the Duke of Normandy "William the Bastard" in his presence, or for that matter Grima ever called himself Wormtongue.
But then in the later chapter T simply forgot. For both simplicity and the requisite awesomeness, far better for the line to have been "I am the Mouth of the King of Kings" or "the Lord of Middle-earth" or even just "the Dark Lord."
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
12-30-2013, 07:27 PM | #16 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't have much to say about the other error though.
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We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.
- Zhuang Zi Last edited by Erestor; 12-30-2013 at 07:45 PM. |
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