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12-22-2013, 09:51 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 55
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Mightiest of the Maiar?
Well I just found this....
"Sauron was as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. Yet he had begun well, at least on the level of desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom. But he went further than any human tyrant in pride and lust for domination, being in origin an immortal spirit, of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman but of a far higher order." Seems to me Tolkien is saying here in no uncertain terms that Sauron as a being was innately much greater and more powerful than Curumo and Olorin. So then was Sauron the strongest Maia? Or was perhaps someone like Melian even better? |
12-23-2013, 02:09 AM | #2 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Nurn
Posts: 73
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You elided the quotation from Letters 183. The phrase you have highlighted is actually a footnote to this sentence,
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12-23-2013, 02:13 AM | #3 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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In lieu of an absolutely certain answer, I would argue that Ëonwë and Ilmarë were probably the mightiest of the Maiar simply because they were their Chiefs and the immediate servants of Manwë and Varda. However, their rank is hardly proof of their power, Melkor being originally most powerful of the Ainur despite Manwë being the leader. That being said, I personally perceive Sauron being among Maiar of near-Vala stature along with the aforementioned chiefs, as well as other powerful Maiar like Melian, Ossë and Uinen. Perhaps Sauron originally occupied within the household of Aulë a similar position of eminence to that of Ëonwë, Ilmarë, Ossë and Uinen in the service of their respective Valar - albeit, I would argue, not the highest among Aulë's folk, as I think we would have been told if he was.
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12-23-2013, 08:40 AM | #4 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
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"Might" is such a subjective term.
Physically, I think Eönwë may be argued to have the most physical power, as he is said in The Simarillion to be unsurpassed in arms by "any in Arda". From a standpoint of wisdom, Olórin was confirmed as "the wisest". Sauron was said to be the greatest servant of Melkor given a name, that is, known enough to the Eldar to have been named. But that leaves open the possibility that Sauron was not the most gifted of Melkor's vassals.
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12-23-2013, 06:44 PM | #5 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
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Agreed. We must be careful not to equate "position" (rank in the valinorean stature) with "might" or "power" in combat.
For example, it is clearly stated (in the Valaquenta), wrt the Valar, that "Greatest in strength and deeds or prowess in Tulkas", and also that Orome is "less strong than Tulkas" - and yet Tulkas is named last among the Lords of the Valar in Order. |
12-24-2013, 04:21 PM | #6 | |
Laconic Loreman
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And The Silmarillion says that Sauron is the greatest of Morgoth's servants, but that is an important qualifier. Tolkien writes Sauron was wiser than Melkor and understood more of the Music as well. So, he has that going for him even though Olorin is counted as the "wisest" of the Maiar. I think Sauron's greatest might, and I can't think of a better word for it than this, is spiritual. That is he was a master of bulldozing others' free wills and making his servants' wills act in accordance to his will. Corrupting Ar-Pharazon and he pretty much got an entire island destroyed without lifting a weapon. The Ringwraiths were completely enslaved to his will and even with the orcs he managed to organize and control them to a greater extent than Morgoth.
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12-25-2013, 10:43 PM | #7 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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So what does "less strong" mean between Tulkas and Oromë when clearly the latter is supposed to be one of the 9 greatest beings in Arda. I do not know. Like the Greek gods Zeus, Hades, and Poseiden these Nine are all peers in majesty, although not necessarily in practice as Manwë is King and the strongest, as was Zeus.
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12-27-2013, 07:32 PM | #8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman, but I don't believe he was the most powerful of the Maiar. Eonwe and Arien are implied to be mightier than anything Morgoth has to offer.
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12-25-2013, 10:27 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
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Perhaps, but it is also said, "In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vasts works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part". [Sil, p. 26]
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12-25-2013, 10:22 PM | #10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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Sauron himself was known as Melkor's mightiest servant, not the mightiest of the Maiar. I'm not sure we can gauge the power of most of the Maiar since few are known even to the Elves for they tended to remain hidden, that is, unclad. Some were almost as great as the Valar as is said, so there were quite powerful ones. Of the chief ones known, Manwë's banner-bearer is said to be "surpassed by none in Arda" [p. 24] in might of arms. Also with Melkor it seems with each succeeding capture he is taken captive by lesser and lesser spirits. First it was against the Valar and then Tulkas took him in. Then at the end of the First Age he was taken in by a Maia, Eönwë! This further shows how much his power was spent when in the beginning he could go against all the Valar on his own.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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