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09-07-2013, 07:54 AM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 129
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Sauron and Istari
I wonder how much Sauron was able to find out about Istari, their origin, nature and abilities?
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09-07-2013, 09:16 AM | #2 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
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Anything he knew in detail, I think it likely he would have learned from Saruman when the latter began to use the Palantír of Orthanc. If Saruman did not directly tell Sauron, he could have possibly deduced some things he wanted to know anyway, owing to his domination of Saruman's will.
After all, the true nature of the Istari was only known to a select few in Middle-earth, and they were mostly in Rivendell, inaccessible for capture. Still, Sauron may not have known the entire truth, but it seems he knew or suspected that Gandalf was the prime mover against him, and that he was not a mere Man or Elf. The Mouth of Sauron's words to Gandalf are telling. Quote:
Also, Sauron in his Necromancer guise apparently encountered Gandalf personally before. In The Tale of Years, Gandalf is said to have first gone to Dol Guldur to investigate the power there in the year 2063, and Sauron "retreats and hides in the East". Maybe he felt something of Gandalf's spirit then, since both were in origin the same order of being.
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09-07-2013, 09:51 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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In "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion" in the "Myths Transformed" section of Morgoth's Ring Professor Tolkien observes the following regarding Sauron:
"If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it was more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals." I would argue from this that Sauron must have been aware of the Wizards for some time, but was not especially threatened by them, any more than he was by the Lords of the Eldar, at least, and was at least in some regard ignorant of their nature and purpose. I daresay this was part of the plan - not only did their humble shape make them readier counsellors rather than leaders for Men, but eluded the full attention of Sauron, who surely underestimated them, and Gandalf in particular.
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09-07-2013, 09:54 AM | #4 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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I agree with Inzil that probably whatever Sauron knew came from Saruman and also Sauron's reasoning that only sees others in his own skewed mind for power. Like as Gandalf tells the Council:
Quote:
Quote:
Saruman fell away from the mission to his own designs and lust for power, and this is where Tolkien gives as the reason that Sauron was always able to understand Saruman more, while Gandalf had always eluded him: Quote:
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Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 09-07-2013 at 10:04 AM. |
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09-07-2013, 10:23 AM | #5 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Were not Saruman and Sauron both maia of Aule, originally which may have been a factor in their affinity- literally kindred spirits.
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09-07-2013, 10:38 AM | #6 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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Indeed. That may have been what led both to consider the use of the palantír at his disposal to further his own ends as well.
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09-07-2013, 11:01 AM | #7 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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I think too that it's interesting to note a passage from the section The History of Galadriel and Celeborn from Unfinished Tales.
When first making contact with Celebrimbor and the Elves of Eregion in the Second Age, Sauron Quote:
Quote:
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