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02-19-2013, 06:41 PM | #1 | ||||
Mighty Quill
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Walking off to look for America
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Sex Amongst the Maiar (and the Other Beings in Arda)
This is just a little awkward for me to write, but I will anyway. It begs to be discussed. On Aganzir's hair colour thread I accidentally pulled the entire thread off-topic with one sentence. It was this:
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__________________________________________________ ________ It is well known that the Valar got married, and presumably had sex with each other. Sex is, after all, an integral part of marriage. That was mentioned on the other thread. My assumption about Sauron being asexual firstly came from me not imagining sex in my reading unless it is brought up by the author, but also because I don't believe that Sauron ever had any loves or crushes, courtships or whatnot. Before Sauron became The Eye, I always imagined him being a humanoid, and therefore he would have the parts to have sex. That was not the issue in my mind; I just thought that he would have never had the inclination to partake in it. He was very busy being evil and all, I assumed that he just didn't have the time. Thinking this would be an interesting topic to discuss in its own thread, I am opening up sex for discussion. What do you think about the maiar having sex? Obviously, I did not think that Sauron would have been interested, but we do have examples of children being born to maiar, like Luthien, so therefore some of them were. Were other maiar interested in that intimacy too, or was Melian's case relatively isolated? Would the maiar be more interested in a mental connection to others, or a sexual one? As I muse over this, I would love to read all of your thoughts. P.S. In answer to the original question, I don't think that wraiths would have been able to have sex. Their physical bodies have all but vanished, and that would make it impossible.
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02-19-2013, 07:39 PM | #3 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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One would assume that Tom and Goldberry--not that I'm calling them Maiar--had a fulfilling marriage. Yet we don't see any little Toms or Berrys.
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02-19-2013, 07:50 PM | #4 | |
Mighty Quill
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02-19-2013, 07:57 PM | #5 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Well, given that she was known for being deeply in touch with nature, doing rain dances and such, presumably she was proficient at the rhythm method.
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02-19-2013, 09:02 PM | #6 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Perhaps she had an arbortion.
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02-19-2013, 08:47 PM | #7 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Seriously, though, I would like to bring up this nice little bit from The Sil: Quote:
I personally believe that taking a shape similar to a human does not necessarily give you human anatomy (f.ex., the Valar don't necessarily have two kidneys and a liver, and thus also don't necessarily have reproductiove organs). I guess that if they choose to be similar to the Children in that way, they may become so, like Melian did, but I prefer to think that they do not even bother themselves with such thoughts. I wonder now if it's possible to have a hermaphrodite or androgynous ainu. (Seems from Agan's thread about Sauron's hair colour that the question of homosexuality is already decided on by Tumblr. ) (As a side note, you should have seen my facial expressions as I was typing all this! A family member who came into the room asked me if I'm ok. )
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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02-19-2013, 09:00 PM | #8 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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I take it you've never been married.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
02-27-2013, 04:22 PM | #9 | ||||
Haunting Spirit
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Saw that in fb and thought to give my 2 cents. Took a bit to find the time
To properly answer a question, one should know what is meant by the terms used. We know who Maiar are, Beings are only relevant if we want to discuss any specific being, but what is this "sex" thingy... In the original question I see hints for 4 possible definitions. Quote:
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My answer depending on what that s-word means: I. Couple Glue: Sauron: Not interested in such thing. Wears only friend in his world on his finger until he looses both. Valar: They surely had a couple thingy. Tantric sex that Sting hasn't dreamt of or something. Maiar: Not as apparant as the Valar but probably yeah. II. Love pendant (Obsession) Sauron: The REAL baddies in Tolkien's world aren't some misunderstood emos (for which he has my respect). They don't love or obsesse over gals. EXCLUSION: While he was a blender, he might have faked it (if it was useful for him he would have). Valar/Maiar: Dunno. Probably. Possibly. They want the couple thingy, after all? III. Physical activity Sauron: Surely. I mean why not? And the time argument is irrelevant if we exclude the love/obsession/couple thing. Valar/Maiar: The ones that were happy to try new things surely... Unless it was binding to human form and/or the couple thingy was great enough. Wizards: The time argument holds, as they will also engage in a love/couple thingy. The old age probably protected them from it. Saruman, just as Sauron, was a complete Baddy: yeah he prolly did it. He even got new clothes, as he probably tried to tell himself that the women actually liked him for himself. IV. Reproduction Sauron: Deffo not. Immortals probably had some way to controll this, as there was no overpopulation issue in ME. But he would probably kill his women and eat the babies before he conceives possible competition. Valar: Couldn't. If the tantric thing was also as good as sting thinks - lucky bastards. Maiar: Had probably something to do with choice.
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02-27-2013, 06:50 PM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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I just noticed this. Is it a metaphorical statement? Surely it is well-established that Sauron was never just a big floating eyeball. Nonetheless I can't think that Sauron, whose first fixation was Order and later simply hatred for those who appeared to obstruct his vision of Order, would have had much interest in anything sexual even at his most incarnate level of spiritual degradation. Sauron seems to me to have been an obsessive person, who in the Third Age at least had two overriding goals: the conquest of the West of Middle-earth and the recovery of the Rings of Power (and especially, of course, the One Ring). He does not strike me as the kind of person who put those fixations aside for the sake of his leisure.
I am still convinced that the Ainur were largely asexual unless confined to a single incarnation, and that their marriages were based on a "purer" form of "gender-attraction" rather than the sexual attraction that Incarnates had to put up with. Again, it seems to me that Professor Tolkien considered sexuality to be in many cases a wearisome obstacle in the relations between men and women in this world ("The dislocation of sex-instinct is one of the chief symptoms of the Fall." (Letters p.48)) and that an emotionally intimate relationship between the two without sexuality would be an admirable thing. Hence in the secondary world Ainur couples would be "better" than Incarnate couples because they wouldn't have sexuality mediating the affection and compatibility of partners. Likewise I am almost entirely sure that Professor Tolkien made a remark somewhere to the effect that marriages among the Ainur were non-sexual in nature (more explicitly than in the quote I've already provided in my previous post, that is) but I still cannot find it... |
02-27-2013, 07:58 PM | #11 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
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Also, while I agree that sexual attraction among incarnate beings is something they/we have to "put up with" (ie. a drive with a power that can distract from 'higher' aspirations and duties) it is not a bad thing in itself. Rather its distractive power lies in its being a means by which Incarnates can experience, be it only fleetingly, that union of being which the Maiar/Valar live in. Theirs (including Morgoth and Sauron) is the Great Song that wove the world together: "Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" Of course there is still the notion that the Dark Lord might have abused sex as a means of asserting his will to power, but again I don't think it half as horrific as the threat of the Witch King: "He [Sauron] will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." The Battle of the Pelennor Fields .
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02-28-2013, 11:03 AM | #12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Mental abuse?
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02-28-2013, 12:26 PM | #13 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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Of course immortals don't have the biological imperative that affects mortals who live on in their children so they will be less driven by their hormones. Elvish spirits are much more in control of their bodies and as they age the spirit takes precedence IIRC. And what is true for elves is likely to be true to a even greater degree for the Valar so I agree that the Ainur are not likely to be affected by desires of the flesh and that the lust of Sauron is more likely to be about the desire to overpower, possess and exert control rather than about sex per se.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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03-01-2013, 04:18 PM | #14 | ||||||||||||
Woman of Secret Shadow
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My take on this is that if there's no sex, why call it marriage? There are other quite sufficient words - why not call it friendship instead?
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I think the Ainur's incarnations are too closely knitted with their fëar to allow sex changes, but I wouldn't rule it out that Arda Marred would occasionally see fëar born in the wrong body. Quote:
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Speaking of the fire Maiar, Arien didn't show a particular interest in romance either, so it may have been some spirit of fire thing. Quote:
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Also, there were some couples that were married from either the creation of the Ainur or the beginning of Arda, depending on what you consider canon, such as Manwë and Varda, but there were also those who only got married later, like Tulkas and Nessa. Personally I find it more probable that there was a period of flirting/courting and 'you+me=swoon' before the wedding rather than a sudden discovery that they were just, you know, really compatible in Ilúvatar's thought. Quote:
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03-01-2013, 04:49 PM | #15 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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The use can be a bit idiosyncratic, but the proper definitions of the words explicitly mean "baby making" and not just making love.
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03-03-2013, 06:33 AM | #16 | |
Wight
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As for conceiving and begetting, both are terms which we use to avoid the idea of sex. They are 'detached' terms, the chief difference between them is that "conceive" is associated more with female nature and "begat" with the male. That said, only a woman can conceive a baby, but anyone can conceive an idea, as Eru conceived the world, while begat is something you wear on a big 'ed. .
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We see everything from behind, and it looks brutal. That is not a tree, but the back of a tree ...everything is stooping and hiding a face. ~ G.K. Chesterton |
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03-03-2013, 08:59 AM | #17 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Perhaps they just preferred Ainul sex.
Sorry, I just can't be serious with this topic.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
03-01-2013, 10:11 PM | #18 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
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If conception amongst the elves is an act of will, that is, if elves procreative only when they choose to procreate, does that not mean that Eru isn't part of the procreation? It would appear to be another version of the free will question. That would appear to differ from at least some Christian ideology which claims that all pregnancies derive from God. Not that Tolkien's legendarium can't differ. Just an observation. Quote:
Let me put it this way instead. Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?
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03-02-2013, 10:30 AM | #19 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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03-02-2013, 05:32 PM | #20 | ||
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
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(And yes, your original phrasing made me take a second look, but since I'm not an Ainu, this is not the time nor place. Suffice to say, I find it unlikely I'll ever know any man as old as Gandalf. ) As for procreation of free will, there's this part in Laws and Customs which is quite interesting: Quote:
1. Only First Age Elves were eager to increase their kind 2. Ilúvatar was eager to avoid overpopulation later The text basically says that either the former is true, or the Eldar spent a considerable amount of their time in the bedroom in the First Age. And you remember why he was called so? Because he came late. Sorry.
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. |
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03-08-2013, 09:25 AM | #21 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A good question
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In the same way Smeagol, due to the influence of the One Ring, from being a hobbit came to be something else, his life prolonged far beyond what was normal for his race. I liked the fact that Tolkien never called Gollum a hobbit, only saying once that he might look like a very ancient hobbit. |
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03-25-2013, 10:12 AM | #22 | |
Mighty Quill
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I did not have the time earlier to read everyone's responses to this thread, but I am glad that it sparked a good (and mostly serious ) discussion. I don't have much to add, but I enjoyed reading quotes from the Tolkien books that I haven't read (I don't have a complete HoME).
One thing to add here: Quote:
After reading this thread, my current opinion is that the "higher" beings in Middle-earth had the power to either desire or not desire intimacy with each other. I still can't see Sauron having any inclination to perform the act of sex. My feelings on the physical bodies of these beings (when they are in a humaniod state, anyway) are thus: they had bodies that worked much the same as ours. Going back to eating and drinking, we know that the Valar, for instance, ate and drank, so therefore they must have needed a digestive tract and some way to dispose of their waste, so why not also have reproductive organs?
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03-25-2013, 12:05 PM | #23 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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03-25-2013, 06:44 PM | #24 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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I think it is probably not too remiss to point out that in the human species there are differences in the development of sexual appetites of the sexes, with women peaking much later than men. In medieval literature (Chaucer comes to mind) the elderly who still pursue sexual appetite are ridiculed, but that is a cultural value rather than normative behaviour. [must go find something I want to reply to Aganzir now, so will edit this later.]
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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