The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[cellurdur]

Whilst looking at a checking up on a few other facts I had to look into the chapter on Galadriel and Celeborn in the Unfinished Tales. It seems very hard to come to a concrete history of the pair.

The first and easiest to fit into the Legendarium is the story that Galadriel was a Noldorin princess and Celeborn a Sindarin prince, but kin through the brothers Olwe and Elmo, their respective grandfathers. galadriel in this version of events drives the Noldor to rebel and receives the ban. She is not part of the kin slaying and as a relative of Thingol is able to enter Doriath where she marries Celeborn. The two remain here until Feanor's sons sack Doriath and they then escape to the Havens.

However, Tolkien's last words on the subject and written shortly before his death give us a completely different story. In this version Galadriel's ancestry remains the same, but Celeborn is now also the grandson of Olwe. They both leave Middle Earth together and are only banned, because they left without permission. In this version of events both take part in the defence of the Teleri at the kin slaying. When they arrive in Middle Earth neither take part in the war against Morgoth and instead move east over the Blue Mountains.

In the case of Galadriel not much is publish about her earlier days and her story can be altered with little trouble. However, there is real trouble in the case of Celeborn. How can he be the grandson of Olwe? If this was the case then he and Galadriel would be first cousins and forbidden from marriage. It would also contradict several statements in Lord of the Rings. So how can we make this fit? Do we have to mix and match the two stories? Keeping Galadriel's sole departure from Valinor but having Celeborn remain a Sindar prince? Also would the Teleri Celeborn have such strong feelings against the dwarves for the sack of Doriath if he was not from there?

Then there is the problem of the Second Age. In the early version Galadriel and Celeborn are the Lord and Lady of Eregion before Sauron urges Celebrimbor's rebellion. Then Galadriel enters Lorien for the first time, before eventually moving to Imladris with Celeborn. In this version she leaves her son Amroth to rule. It is certain that Amroth is no longer he son and a late version of Amroth's story has him ruling Lorien until the days of Earnil.

Consequently we are forced to reject a significant part of this. Celeborn is said to have lived in Lindon with Galadriel in part of the Second Age, but they still must have lived with Elrond for some part of the Second Age or how else could Elrond fall for Celebrian?

Lastly there is the question of the Elessar. For me the only version that seems to fit with the story is the first case. Where Gandalf brings the stone back from Earendil. In this version Galadriel keeps her nobility and Celebrimbor is not said to be Noldor elf from Gondolin. It foreshadows her giving it to Elrond and it shows she had the favour of the Valar.

What does anyone else make of the story. Is is possible to somehow patch the pieces together to make a coherent history?

[Galin]

For me there is no question that Galadriel was a leader of the Exiles and was banned at the end of the First Age from returning West. Along with Celeborn being Sindarin, this was the version Tolkien himself published in The Road Goes Ever On -- and there is no indication that JRRT was considering this fact, if he even rememered it, when he wrote the late adumbrated tale.

Christopher Tolkien seems to say that Galadriel's history could be radically changed as the Silmarillion was not published, and although he next notes (if I recall correctly) 'on the other hand' and brings up RGEO, he doesn't seem to shine a light on Galadriel's published history along with Celeborn being a Sindarin Elf (which had also been stated in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings).

At least at this point in his commentary anyway, he seems to point out the problems with Celeborn and RGEO, but not with Galadriel and RGEO.

[Galin]

Lastly there is the question of the Elessar. For me the only version that seems to fit with the story is the first case. Where Gandalf brings the stone back from Earendil. In this version Galadriel keeps her nobility and Celebrimbor is not said to be Noldor elf from Gondolin. It foreshadows her giving it to Elrond and it shows she had the favour of the Valar.

Not that you said otherwise, but both these versions are meant to be internal in my opinion; that is, both versions were told or written in Middle-earth -- as compared to the external perspective of Tolkien working on two different versions to decide for himself which one was to be the story told within Middle-earth (rejecting the other one).

That said I find that both versions carry 'problematic' ideas, to my mind a notable one in the Gandalf scenario being that by this time Galadriel can already employ Nenya.


In the second scenario, at least with respect to the matter of Celebrimbor anyway: since it seems the case that Celebrimbor was not yet imagined as a Feanorean at this point, an easy fix in my opinion would be to go back to Enerdhil as the smith of Gondolin.

It's attested, although yes, from an external perspective the note at the end of the text revises Enerdhil to Celebrimbor, but when Celebrimbor becomes a Feanorean I think it very likely that the Smith of Gondolin was to receive a different name...

... so why not back to Enerdhil?

[cellurdur]

In the case of the Elessar you make a good point that by the time Gandalf would have arrived, Galadriel would already have been able to use Nenya. I was thinking this could be changed, by making Glorfindel the one, who gives her the stone, but even that does not work, because Galadriel did not move into the Lorien permanently until the death of Amroth.

In the case of Celebrimbor being from Gondolin, I think Tolkien had just forgotten what he had previously wrote. This story is later than the LOTR and there he has Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor. In this version there is still an Enerdhil, but he and Celebrimbor were friends in Gondolin.

It really is hard to make both work, I will address the issue more fully when I have am home.

[Findegil]

Yes, this is a difficult chapter. I think Cellurdur’s recollection of the earlier story put very simple. In my opinion the story of Galadriel and Celeborn was very fluent and changed bit by bit. But as Cellurdur I am always searching for the 'truth' behind the many versions. In my case I am a combiner, that means I would only skip information when it is clearly gainsaid by statement in a source of higher relevance (however one does define this relevance). Based on this for me the story of Galadriel and Celeborn runs thus:
Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin. Since it is said that Celeborn was the son of Galadon son of Elmo and the grandson of Olwe brother of Elmo, we know that the wife’s of Olwe and Elmo must have been not akin and that the wife of Galadon was the daughter of Olwe.
The mother Galadriel, Earwen, was also a daughter of Olwe. Therefore for the marriage to possible Galadriels father, Finarfin, and Celeborns father, Amdir, must be not akin at all. This is true, as far as we know.
So both marriages of first cousins in this line are possible.
If Celeborn is now to be sailing back from Valinor with Galadriel, this means that Olwe and Elmo had their children very early and that Celeborn was a good deal older then Galadriel. Since we know that Elmo and Galadon stayed in Beleriand when Olwe sailed west, Celeborn must have been born in Beleriand before the depature of the Teleri and sailed with his grandfather Olwe while his parents stayed in Beleriand.
More complex becomes the situation by the fact that we have in addition to Celeborn further children of Galadon and further names for him. For me Galadon, Malgalad and Amdír are different names for the same person. Thus also Galathil and Amroth become one and same person, while Nimloth must be a daughter of Galadon/Malgald/Amdír and a sister (not a nice) of Celeborn.

Story line:

Valian Year 1105: Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe return from Valinor and lead the Quendi leave Cuivienen.
VY 1115: Vanyar and Noldor reach Falas and the Noldor settle down in Neldoreth.
VY 1128: The Teleri come over the Ered Luin and settle in Thargelion.
VY 1130: Elwe is lost in Nan Elmoth.
VY 1132: Vanyar and Noldor leave Beleriand for Valinor. Most of the Teleri settle at the mouth of Sirion and take Olwe as king.
VY 1135: About this time Olwe's first daughter and Elmos son Galadon/Malgalad/Amdír must have been born in Beleriand.
VY 1140: About this time Amdír takes Olwe's daughter as wife.
VY 1141: About this time Galathil/Amroth is born.
VY 1146: About this time Celeborn is born.
VY 1149: Ulmo comes back to Beleriand.
VY 1150: The Teleri leave Beleriand. Olwe and his grandson Celeborn are transported on Tol Eressea. Elmo, Amdír, his wife and Amroth stay behind in search of Elwe.
VY 1151: The voyage of the Teleri is brought to a halt in sight of Valinor and they stay on Tol Eressea.
VY 1152: Elwe and Melian come out of Nan Elmoth and build Doriath. Elmo, Amdír and Amroth are with them.
VY 1161: The Teleri came at least to Valinor and settle at the coast of Eldamar.
VY 1230: Finarfin are born in Valinor.
VY 1280: Finarfin marriages Earwen daughter of Olwe.
VY 1380: about this time Galadriel is born.
VY 1492: About this time Galadriel goes to Aqualonde and meets Celeborn. Both plan to sail back to Middle-Earth.
VY 1495: First Kinslaying at Aqualonde. Galadriel and Celeborn fight against the Noldor and rescue their ship.
VY 1496: Galadriel and Celeborn leave Valinor without permission and thus come under the ban.
VY 1497: The First Battle in Beleriand. Galadriel and Celeborn reach Birthombar. Amdír leaves with Amroth and Nimloth Doriath and goes to Ossiriand.

20 First Age: Mereth Aderthad. Probably about this time Galadriel goes with her brother Finrod to Tol Sirion, while Celeborn joins his family in Ossiriand.
52 FA: Galadriel and Finrod visit Menegroth and Galadriel stays there.
102 FA: Nargothrond is build and Galadriel stays there for a time. When she returns to Doriath she meets there again Celeborn.
472 FA: Galadriel leaves Beleriand and settles down at Nenuial. Celeborn possibly goes back to Ossiriand.
497 FA: Dior marriages Nimloth.
503 FA: Thingol is slain and Doriath falls for the first time.
504 FA: Dior and Nimloth go to Doriath. Celeborn is probably with them.
507 FA: Downfall of Doriath, Dior is slain. Nimloth and her Daugther Elwing fly back to Ossiriand with the help of Celeborn.
510 FA: Fall of Gondolin. Nimloth hear about Tour’s folk heading to the mouth of Sirion and goes their herself with Elwing and a small following of survivors from Doriath. They reach the havens before Tuor.
545 FA - 587 FA: War of Wrath: Beleriand is destroyed and starts to sink. The Elves retreat to Ossirand (South-Lindon) and Thargelion (North-Lindon). Amdír, Amroth and Celeborn cross Ered-Luin and go east. Celeborn joins Galadriel at Nenuial and they become Lord and Lady of Eriador.

1 Second Age: Amdír and Amroth come to Lórien and develop there a realm of the wood-elves.
700 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Eregion and build a realm of Noldor-Elves.
750 SA: Ost-in-Edhil is build.
884 - 910 SA: Tar-Aldarion makes many long voyages to Middle-Earth. He sails up Gwathló and meets with Galadriel. He gives Gil-galad nuts of the Mallorn. But since these do not grow well in Lindon Gil-galad gives them to Galadriel.
1000 SA: Galadriel does make contact with Lórien, which is slowly sindarized due to the migration of Elves from Eregion. Galadriel does plant the Mallorns in Lórien.
1200 SA: Sauron comes to Eregion.
1350 - 1400 SA: Celebrimbor makes himself lord of Eregion. Celeborn stays in Eregion but Galadriel goes to Lorien.
1693 SA: The War of Sauron against Eregion begins. Celebrimbor visits Lorien and gives Galadriel Nenya.
1697 SA: Celeborn makes a sortie and is able to joins Elrond, who has come from Lindon to help in the fight against Sauron. Sauron takes Eregion and slays Celebrimbor. When Sauron attacks Elrond and Celeborn, Galadriel with Elves from Lorien and Durin III. with Dwarves from Moria attack Sauron from behind. Elrond and Celeborn retreat to the north and build Imladris, while the gates of Moria are closed before Sauron approach.
1750 SA: About this time comes Galadriel to Imladris and meets Celeborn. Celebrian is with her and Elrond falls in love with her. Galadriel and Celebron go to Lorien and fortify it against Sauron trying to cross Anduin again.
1800 SA: About this time Galadriel and Celebrian leave Lorien and go to South-Lindon. Celeborn follows later on.
2400 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn visit Lorien again but go then to Imladris. Only short time later they move agian. Together with Celebrian they go to the mouth of Gwathlo and dwell at the place later known as Dol Amroth. Celeborns Neff Amroth does visit them at times and some Elves from Lorien stay with them.
3433 SA: In the Battle of Dargorlad Amdír is slain.

1 Third Age: Amdír son Amroth comes back to Lorien and becomes Lord of Lorien.
109 TA: Elrond marriages Celebrian.
1000 TA: About this time Galadriel and Celeborn come again to Lorien. Galadriel makes long journeys through Rhovanion from the borders of Gondor to the realm of Thranduil in the North-East of Mirkwood.
1100 TA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Imladris.
1981 TA: Nain I. slain, the Dwarves leave Moria. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost. Galadriel and Celeborn come to Lorien and become Lord and Lady of Lorien.
2509 TA: Celebrian is attacked on Redhorn-pass.
2510 TA: Celebrian laves Middle-Earth.
3019 TA: 3 attacks on Lorien are repelled. After the fall of Barad-dûr Celeborn crosses Anduin and destroys with the help of Galadriel Dol Guldur. Celeborn makes the south of Mirkwood a part of his realm. Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond journey to Minas Tirith for the marriage of Arwen and Elessar.
3021 TA: Galadriel and Elrond leave Middle-Earth.

30 Fourth Age: About this time Celeborn leaves Lorien and goes to Imladris.
61 FA: About this time Celeborn and his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir leave Middle-Earth.

Many of the dates are speculative as is of course the complete compilation of events.

Respectfully
Findegil

[cellurdur]

Do you have any evidence that first cousins were allowed to marry if there other parent were not kin? This seems to go against what we know with Maeglin and Idril. Maeglin's father was a Dark Elf related to the Noldor, but Idril's mother was of the Vanyar. In fact Idril was more Vanyar than Noldor.

In the case of Galadriel if we are to accept that Celeborn was the son of Elmo then there is no problem since they would be second cousins and not first.

Also I don't think it is correct to associate Malgalad/Amdir with Galadon. If this was the case they would be close kindred with Elrond and more would be mentioned about this. I find you are unnecessarily shrinking the Sindar royal family and erasing characters. Amdir/Malgalad can easily be a prince of the Sindar without being so closely related to Thingol as to be his great nephew.

As for Nimloth surviving the sack of Doriath, this seems quite unlikely. We never hear from her again. It is perhaps more likely she was killed in the destruction.

[Galin]

In the case of Celebrimbor being from Gondolin, I think Tolkien had just forgotten what he had previously wrote. This story is later than the LOTR and there he has Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor. In this version there is still an Enerdhil, but he and Celebrimbor were friends in Gondolin.

I don't think Tolkien forgot, as I think Celebrimbor as a Feanorean was later than the Elessar text, and only entered The Lord of the Rings in the revised edition (it also entered in a change to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as well).

In The Elessar, Celebrimbor is first friends with Enerdhil... but the note at the end makes Celebrimbor the maker of the jool, displacing Enerdhil (which might call into question if Enerdhil was still to be part of the tale at this point). So what I'm suggesting is that since we probably do not have Celebrimbor the Feanorean in Gondolin at all, then the maker of the jool in Gondolin can once again become Enerdhil... and Celebrimbor can make the later one in Eregion.


Regarding Findegil's post: that's a lot of work but it seemingly ignores what JRR Tolkien himself published in The Road Goes Ever On about both Galadriel and Celeborn.

I'm sure you have your reasons but to my mind the history here is muddled enough, and while these late variations are certainly interesting, I don't see why they should trump 'authorized' text, especially given that even Tolkien himself notes that late in life his memory was not retentive...

... and this adumbrated tale is about as late as it gets. I really can't see Tolkien's concern with inner consistency, as noted by Christopher Tolkien, allowing him to simply write a notably new history of Galadriel with no suggestion at all that he was aware of the major inconsistency he would be creating with two characters...

... unless he had merely forgotten what he had published versus what he had written.


Not to mention that (in my opinion) he would now have an arguably more difficult explanation before him as to why Celeborn 'from Aman' (if so) remained in Middle-earth for a time when Galadriel sailed (and was seemingly unhappy about this given his words to Aragorn in the book).

Tolkien could explain this somewhow, yes, I mean JRRT was quite inventive... but I note that when he did explain it, the explanation included that Celeborn had never been Over Sea, and would be leaving his long home of Middle-earth.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I don't think Tolkien forgot, as I think Celebrimbor as a Feanorean was later than the Elessar text, and only entered The Lord of the Rings in the revised edition (it also entered in a change to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as well).

In The Elessar, Celebrimbor is first friends with Enerdhil... but the note at the end makes Celebrimbor the maker of the jool, displacing Enerdhil (which might call into question if Enerdhil was still to be part of the tale at this point). So what I'm suggesting is that since we probably do not have Celebrimbor the Feanorean in Gondolin at all, then the maker of the jool in Gondolin can once again become Enerdhil... and Celebrimbor can make the later one in Eregion.

Are the inscriptions on the door of Moria from a the revised edition? Seems incredulous that any Elf of Gondolin would leave place the mark of Feanor above their door unless they were from there.

Christopher Tolkien's language appears to suggest that he believes the text comes after the revision of Celebrimbor's ancestry. Since he says he 'again' appears as an Elf from Gondolin.

I tend to go with what it was published unless it was a huge mistake. I think we can all accept that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin.

I agree we can once again insert Enerdhil and have Celebrimbor as the maker of the 2nd Elessar, but I don't think Galadriel's character fits with her portrayal in Tolkien's last vision of her. She is dangerous close to encouraging Celebrimbor to forge the Great Rings in her language and she is still too prideful to accept the council of the Valar.

I am more inclined to have Glorfindel returning at some point in the 2nd Age replace Gandalf in the text and hand her the Elessar. Glorfindel being from Gondolin would be very aware of it's powers perhaps more so than even Gandalf.