Dagor Dagorath/Turin returning?

[elbenprincess]

I´m confused with all the versions of the last battle. In one it is said that Turin will return either from Mandos or from beyond the circles f the world. In another version Turin will return in the War of Wrath, kills a dragon and then left for ever the circles of the world and will not appear in the Dagor Dagorath, insead of him Eonwe will end Morgoth.

And what is all that with Turin to be counted among the gods? I´m not sure, in an old tale? Turin and Ninior are counted as Valar even before the last battle, while in the version Turin takes part in the battle he will become a Valar (nothing is said of Ninior).

I couldn´t really find what Tolkiens final view on that matter was.

Is it right that the version where he takes part in the battle and becomes a Valar is an old one and the other version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle and therefore doesn´t become a Valar is a later version?

Which version do you prefer? The version where he becomes a god or the version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle?

[Galin]

If I recall correctly, the 'last' reference (according to the external chronology) concerns Turin returning to the War of Wrath to slay Ancalagon... or at least Christopher Tolkien has argued that this is the meaning of the Andreth prophecy.

Perhaps notable is that the prophecy is given to Andreth. My feeling is that Tolkien was going to retain some form of a final battle, but it was not to be characterized as a prophecy given by Mandos, and was rather to be imagined as a Mannish idea.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Is it right that the version where he takes part in the battle and becomes a Valar is an old one and the other version where he doesn´t take part in the last battle and therefore doesn´t become a Valar is a later version?

If I recall correctly, the facts are these:

- The oldest version (from the Lost Tales) is that Turin takes part in the final battle, kills Morgoth, and becomes a Vala.

- This was changed in the 1937 QS so that Turin still takes part in the final battle and still kills Morgoth, but he is not counted as one of the Valar. Instead, he 'returns from the halls of Mandos'.

- In the cursory 1950s revisions to this part of QS, 'from the halls of Mandos' became 'from the doom of Men', the words 'and Beren Camlost' were inserted, and then an X was drawn through the whole section. Presumably, we see Tolkien trying out different ideas here.

- The 1950s Valaquenta ends with a statement that Mandos has not said anything about the end of the world (this statement was transplanted to the end of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' in the 1977 published Silmarillion). So it appears that the prophecy of Mandos was at this point rejected, at least from the 'Quenta Silmarillion' tradition.

- Texts from the late 1950s found in HoMe X (including the 'Athrabeth') talk in a general way about 'Arda Remade', suggesting that some idea of an 'end of times' prophecy still existed.

- A text from c. 1968, 'The Problem of Ros', mentions the prophecy of Andreth: that Turin will return at the end of the First Age to kill Ancalagon.

- In the 1972 note and alliterative fragment on the Istari (found in UT), mention is made of the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will return and Manwe will descend from Taniquetil, suggesting that this last battle, as distinct from the prophecy concerning Turin, had still not been entirely rejected.

Edit: I was wrong about the date of the note and alliterative fragment; they are from before 1972 and, quite likely, before the 1968 'Problem of Ros'.

[Galin]

- In the 1972 essay and alliterative fragment on the Istari (found in UT), mention is made of the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will return and Manwe will descend from Taniquetil, suggesting that this last battle, as distinct from the prophecy concerning Turin, had still not been entirely rejected.

Just wondering which essay you mean.

[Aiwendil]

Looking at UT now, I realize the text I had in mind is more 'note' than 'essay' (it seems to be associated with the brief narrative of the choosing of the Istari). The relevant bits:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the "Faithful" of that time that "Gandalf" was the last appearance of Manwë himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name "in the West" had been Olórin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Will thou learn the lore that was long secret
of the Five that came from a far country?
One only returned. Others never again
under Men's dominion Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath and the Doom cometh.

[Galin]

OK that's what I guessed, thanks, but neither of these two can be dated to 1972 I think... or at least we don't know that, correct?

I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the Andreth prophecy might be the 'latest' reference which includes Turin, but I'm not sure if it's the latest hint at some sort of final battle.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

If I recall correctly, the facts are these:

- The oldest version (from the Lost Tales) is that Turin takes part in the final battle, kills Morgoth, and becomes a Vala.

- This was changed in the 1937 QS so that Turin still takes part in the final battle and still kills Morgoth, but he is not counted as one of the Valar. Instead, he 'returns from the halls of Mandos'.

- In the cursory 1950s revisions to this part of QS, 'from the halls of Mandos' became 'from the doom of Men', the words 'and Beren Camlost' were inserted, and then an X was drawn through the whole section. Presumably, we see Tolkien trying out different ideas here.

- The 1950s Valaquenta ends with a statement that Mandos has not said anything about the end of the world (this statement was transplanted to the end of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' in the 1977 published Silmarillion). So it appears that the prophecy of Mandos was at this point rejected, at least from the 'Quenta Silmarillion' tradition.

- Texts from the late 1950s found in HoMe X (including the 'Athrabeth') talk in a general way about 'Arda Remade', suggesting that some idea of an 'end of times' prophecy still existed.

- A text from c. 1968, 'The Problem of Ros', mentions the prophecy of Andreth: that Turin will return at the end of the First Age to kill Ancalagon.

- In the 1972 essay and alliterative fragment on the Istari (found in UT), mention is made of the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will return and Manwe will descend from Taniquetil, suggesting that this last battle, as distinct from the prophecy concerning Turin, had still not been entirely rejected.

The story of Hurin's family is so desperate, so bleak and without any hope, which is why I believe the Tokien wanted Turin to return.

It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative.

As for the Dagor Dagorath, I am not sure Tolkien disregarded the idea rather than dropped the prophecy coming from Mandos. The Numenoreans certainly must have persevered with a prophecy about his return, but as we see from the Silmarillion, they were confused about a great deal.

When Tolkien discusses Morgoth regaining strength and re-entering Arda he claims thats it is possible since his spirit would once again grow in time. When you add in the very late reference from the essay on Istari, then it does appear there was some vague final battle in Tolkien's mind, but the details of how this was to be known to the world was vague.

[Aiwendil]

When you add in the very late reference from the essay on Istari, then it does appear there was some vague final battle in Tolkien's mind, but the details of how this was to be known to the world was vague.

Note that, per the discussion above, that reference is not as late as I thought.

[Galadriel55]

I personally think that Turin should be the one to deal Morgoth his death blow. As cellurdur said, his tale it so tragic, it makes sense (and poetic justice) that Turin should be the one.

I am perfectly happy with Earendil defeating Ancalagon, though. I would not want Turin to take that part.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Note that, per the discussion above, that reference is not as late as I thought.

Yeh I just flicked through and it seems the essay is from 1954.

[sneha]

I do not want Turin to become a Vala. Somehow it would ring false.
I did not like Turin very much. Somehow his arrogance rubbed me the wrong way and at points I was literally satisfied when he was being punished especially after Nargothrond fell. But I do think he deserves the right to face if not kill Morgoth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is."

It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative.
Surely not *impossible*; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is."

So then it is obvious to imagine that Tolkien could have intended to change “to be numbered with the sons of the Valar” to “to be numbered with the Maiar”, if he intended to include the return of Túrin at all. That is hardly a problem.

Surely not *impossible*; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men.

Or that possibly Tolkien, who in other passages imagined Túrin coming back to life not in the battle at the end of the First Age but in the Last Battle, may also imagine Ancalagon restored to life.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Of course, the REAL reality is that the War of Wrath narrative was quite old and unrevised, but CT had to use it because there was nothing newer; and while he naturally changed Fionwe > Eonwe etc. to fit later conceptions, the ultimate doom of Turin was too vague to justify ret-conning something in