Native american indians?

[Ulvenok]

It's common knowledge Tolkien modeled arda on our world, shire roughly being where Tolkien grew up. This has lead to many thinking he was racist and maybe he was but this isn't why I made this topic. Valinor would then be america would it not and the native american indians lived in harmony with nature, qualities I'm sure Toklien would approve of. Is it possible that Tolkien had a certain liking for the native american culture and thought of them consciously when he created valinor and the elven race?

If one would imagine Tolkien to be eru which in a way he is, then could the destruction of Numenor be some kind of metaphor for Tolkien's dislike for how Europe treated the native american indians and about industrialization in general. I know he has said he doesn't approve of his work being perceived as allegorical, but it sure makes sense. His love for nature is apparent through all of his work and the native americans are very much alike to the elves except they're blonde. (racist) just kidding

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

It's common knowledge Tolkien modeled arda on our world, shire roughly being where Tolkien grew up. This has lead to many thinking he was racist and maybe he was but this isn't why I made this topic. Valinor would then be america would it not and the native american indians lived in harmony with nature, qualities I'm sure Toklien would approve of. Is it possible that Tolkien had a certain liking for the native american culture and thought of them consciously when he created valinor and the elven race?

If one would imagine Tolkien to be eru which in a way he is, then could the destruction of Numenor be some kind of metaphor for Tolkien's dislike for how Europe treated the native american indians and about industrialization in general. I know he has said he doesn't approve of his work being perceived as allegorical, but it sure makes sense. His love for nature is apparent through all of his work and the native americans are very much alike to the elves except they're blonde. (racist) just kidding

Valinor had nothing to do with Indians. Valinor was eventually moved from the circles of the world after the destruction of Numenor. It is in fact a Tolkienic version of Faery, like Avalon or Tir Nan Og, except without the Welsh or Irish accents.

[Ulvenok]

You called me Tonto?

Anyway I think valinor could very well be america before it was invaded by "man". If that is so then Numenor's destruction would be a maybe even greater metaphorical plot device to symbolise his disapproval of how the europeans treated that land and it's people. He hated machines and loved nature, if one would draw paralells between the fictional and real world which Tolkien did. Then I think in fact that Valinor could represent america before the cowboys invaded it.

Drowning Numenor and moving valinor from the world would then be quite significant and very interesting. Also if one assumes Valinor to be america before it was invaded by the europeans then that would maybe help one explain some enigmas in the story that aren't thoroughly explained. Oh yeah and if you calling me Tonto was meant as an insult you're quite off your target since I'm scandinavian.

[alatar]

Ulvenok, why do you think "drowning Numenor and moving valinor from the world would then be quite significant and very interesting"? If Valinor is Pre-Columbus America, what happens to America when it is removed from the circle of the world?

[Ulvenok]

Uhh what happens to america when it's removed from the world? What kind of question is that, if one would translate moving valinor from the world and destroying numenor, apply that to our own history. Then that'd mean Tolkien would have prefered the colonization of america never to have taken place. If one would try to think of Arda as our real world and it's history, a lot of what happens in the fiction would make more sense and it would also highlight Tolkien's own views on certain geopolitical events throughout history. However this would be a sensitive topic, since people of many cultures love Tolkien today and even interweave their own cultural heritage with Tolkien's fiction, which necessarly was not meant to be perceived in that fashion. In either case if we would try to draw parallels between our own world and Arda maybe some of the enigmas in the stories would make more sense?

(I so deserve an A in english don't you think) xD

[alatar]

Thanks for the reply (and your English is excellent!).

If Valinor were America, then it would be more the mythological America than the real one we find in history. The aboriginals weren't all peace loving Noble Savages. They share the same DNA with those that came later from the East, and that DNA contains the genes for war and other orc work.

Also, the natives used some tools, which, given more time, might have led to the smoke stacks that Tolkien seemed to hate.

That said, I can see what you mean about America being the idyllic paradise in the West.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Uhh what happens to america when it's removed from the world? What kind of question is that, if one would translate moving valinor from the world and destroying numenor, apply that to our own history. Then that'd mean Tolkien would have prefered the colonization of america never to have taken place. If one would try to think of Arda as our real world and it's history, a lot of what happens in the fiction would make more sense and it would also highlight Tolkien's own views on certain geopolitical events throughout history. However this would be a sensitive topic, since people of many cultures love Tolkien today and even interweave their own cultural heritage with Tolkien's fiction, which necessarly was not meant to be perceived in that fashion. In either case if we would try to draw parallels between our own world and Arda maybe some of the enigmas in the stories would make more sense?

(I so deserve an A in english don't you think) xD

Not without correct use of capital letters for proper names, or proper end punctuation for sentences, or that dreaded phantom menace, spelling.

Given that Middle-earth is supposed to be the very early ages of our own world, I would think that the mythology would mirror the concepts of world geography from our early cultures. Early people had no idea that North America existed, so it makes sense that Tolkien's Legendarium would not include an actual continent of North America, but the fairy realm, which becomes quite clear if one reads BoLT and other Tolkien books on the Legendarium.

Also, I think that this interpretation of the colonisation of the New World is probably too close to the kind of thinking about RotR and World War II which Tolkien deplored in his introduction to LotR. Tolkien wasn't writing an allegory of current events.

And Morth, I think that using the name "Tonto" is unnecessarily inflamatory. We are going through some very serious issues right now in my home country with our First Nations peoples and I think many would find your use unfortunate at best and downright insulting at worst.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Valinor had nothing to do with Indians. Valinor was eventually moved from the circles of the world after the destruction of Numenor. It is in fact a Tolkienic version of Faery, like Avalon or Tir Nan Og, except without the Welsh or Irish accents.

In his preface to the Lord of the Rings Tolkien expresses his dislike of allegory, prefering his work to be read in terms of "applicability"; that is, it can be applied to many situations in the real world but is not intended as a simple parallel to places or historical events.
Tolkien's fellow Inkling C.S.Lewis wrote about 'mythopoeic' stories, which tell us something about who we are in the way that ancient stories do. Avalon and Atlantis have already been mentioned. I would add the worlds of Utnapishtim (Sumerian) and Noah (Hebrew) to this list because their tales contain notions of a world from which we are cut off by floods.

The idea of Valinor being 'moved from the circles of the earth' also relates to that feeling of yearning for something we cannot name (a sort of homesickness which we can feel even when at home) especially when seeing the sun set over the western sea. I'm sure I am not alone in feeling the hairs on the back of my neck stand up on hearing songs which say thing like:

"Living on your western shore,
Saw summer sunsets, I asked for more,
I stood by your Atlantic sea,
And I sang a song for Ireland"

This is not to say I think Tolkien was thinking of Ireland as Valinor any more than he was thinking of the Americas. If I were from either of those cultures it would make sense to put their name in place of 'Valinor', because that would have special meaning for me, but I think JRR was conjuring up something which is both more mystical and more universally applicable.