Physical Form Of The VALAR - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

R. · 01-08-2013, 09:35 AM

Hello everybody my question is what is your opinions as to what the physical form of the Valar was specifically when fighting against Morgoth as in The Battle of the Powers or the first War during the ordering of Arda did they fight in physical form do ya'll think ?

P.S. Sorry if this question is redundant THANKS.

Ulvenok · 01-08-2013, 10:15 AM

Quote:

specifically

This can't really be answered

But I'm sure since they could cloth themself in any form, they probably fought in several "physical" forms

R. · 01-09-2013, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

This can't really be answered

But I'm sure since they could cloth themself in any form, they probably fought in several "physical" forms

Well I just curious of peoples opinions is all.

Avanti · 01-09-2013, 08:44 AM

the valar

are avatars

of eru

fractals

of the greater

consciousness

their bodies

are mere clothes

melkor

desiring

separatedness

merged with matter

and was thus

unable

to change form

tolkien

was not a polytheist

my own view

is a mix

of the tolkienesque

and the lovecraftian

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-09-2013, 11:47 AM

Well, they were "arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible." That's all T tells us.

Galin · 01-09-2013, 12:28 PM

Technically Tolkien revised 'the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible' --> 'the host of the Gods were arrayed in forms of Valinor'

The meaning of which I'm not exactly sure, but Christopher Tolkien published: 'for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible'

But some have wondered if perhaps the Valar themselves did not attend

Despite the resulting devastation to Beleriand.

Belegorn · 03-05-2013, 03:52 AM

I would think they did fight in physical forms even though they could "work many things with thought rather than hands" [Sil, pp. 112] I'd think they would fight in the very forms they tended to take as mentioned on pages 19-23 of the Silmarillion. I say they tended to take a particular forms, but they did at times take others, "the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are NOT AT ALL TIMES like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Iluvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread" [11-12].

Take Melkor who, "often walked abroad, in MANY SHAPES of power and fear" [p. 34] We are told of Manwe and of Melkor respectively, "His raiment is blue, and blue is the fire of his eyes, and his sceptre is of sapphire, which the Noldor wrought for him" [35-36] and his brother, "was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with deadly cold." [12]

In the 2nd overthrow of Morgoth Utumno was a physical fortress and I would think that being so they would have physical form since that's where his servants fled when defeated initially. However, when building the defences of Valinor the Powers used physical defenses there as well and were not necessarily in physical form in defence of that place. Yet since the battle of Melkor and Tulkas is clearly one of physical nature ["wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face"] I'd assume that generally the battle was fought with physical bodies and Melkor seemed to be led away physically with the "chain Angainor that Aule had wrought" [pp. 51-52].

I think in the first war it may have been a combination of them being clothed and not so. This may have been the case in the 2nd as well. If they did fight in any form it would probably be the ones they normally wore. However, we do know that Melkor had exceedingly great power above his peers for his host "contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth [p. 26] He was one Vala on his side, no other, and it is said of the highest Valar alone, "Nine were of chief power and reverence... in majesty they were peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and Maiar, or of any other order that Illuvatar has sent into Ea." [p. 23] Melkor was among these 9 so he was not only fighting against 8 Valar who could not be matched by any other Vala or creature, none of his servants could contend with them, but he also fought with the lesser Valar and all those other Maiar some of whom were "well nigh as great as" [p. 12] the Valar. What does confound me is how Tulkas who is not even counted as among the highest of the Valar beat Melkor. In his final overthrow when much of his power was spent and he bacame bound to the earth I do not even think a Valar was needed to chain him up! Still before that, I'm not sure how Tulkas beat him.

To your question again the Valar wore the forms that were like that of the COI they beheld in the vision, but in a grander way, even though those forms hid their powers.

Saurondil · 03-06-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r.j.c.

Hello everybody my question is what is your opinions as to what the physical form of the Valar was specifically when fighting against Morgoth as in The Battle of the Powers or the first War during the ordering of Arda did they fight in physical form do ya'll think ?

P.S. Sorry if this question is redundant THANKS.

## The arising of Ulmo out of the deeps of the Sea at Nevrast may give a clue - though he did so to strengthen Tuor for the task of bearing Ulmo's warning to Gondolin; not to fight him. The vision of Ulmo's majesty is a foil to the description of Morgoth's, when he lost the power to change his form.

Osse "raged" - & he was "only" a Maia. Presumably the Valar would have directed their energy in a less chaotic way; Tulkas in particular. Though, Osse had been affected by Melkor.

AFAICS, the ability to change form, & to take action that reflects the scope of one's power to act as the Vala (or Maia) one is, depends to a significant extent on the grace in that Vala or Maia; & grace can be received only as a gift of Eru. The Valar are strong, and full of variety, because they are totally dependent on the all-creative goodness of Eru, and don't forget it. Unlike Melkor - & Sauron - who are equally dependent, but deny their dependence, and try to set up as gods on their own.

Would Valar taken on bodily forms in fighting another Vala ? If their bodily forms are a concession to human weakness, and not how they appear to another, not necessarily. Ask an Elf

01-08-2013, 09:35 AM	#1
R. Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2008 Location: In the belly of the beast Posts: 26	Physical Form Of The VALAR Hello everybody my question is what is your opinions as to what the physical form of the Valar was specifically when fighting against Morgoth as in The Battle of the Powers or the first War during the ordering of Arda did they fight in physical form do ya'll think ? P.S. Sorry if this question is redundant THANKS. __________________ In The Belly Of The BEAST

01-09-2013, 11:47 AM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,322	Well, they were "arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible." That's all T tells us. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

03-05-2013, 03:52 AM	#7
Belegorn Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien Posts: 462	I would think they did fight in physical forms even though they could "work many things with thought rather than hands" [Sil, pp. 112] I'd think they would fight in the very forms they tended to take as mentioned on pages 19-23 of the Silmarillion. I say they tended to take a particular forms, but they did at times take others, "the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are NOT AT ALL TIMES like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Iluvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread" [11-12]. Take Melkor who, "often walked abroad, in MANY SHAPES of power and fear" [p. 34] We are told of Manwe and of Melkor respectively, "His raiment is blue, and blue is the fire of his eyes, and his sceptre is of sapphire, which the Noldor wrought for him" [35-36] and his brother, "was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with deadly cold." [12] In the 2nd overthrow of Morgoth Utumno was a physical fortress and I would think that being so they would have physical form since that's where his servants fled when defeated initially. However, when building the defences of Valinor the Powers used physical defenses there as well and were not necessarily in physical form in defence of that place. Yet since the battle of Melkor and Tulkas is clearly one of physical nature ["wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face"] I'd assume that generally the battle was fought with physical bodies and Melkor seemed to be led away physically with the "chain Angainor that Aule had wrought" [pp. 51-52]. I think in the first war it may have been a combination of them being clothed and not so. This may have been the case in the 2nd as well. If they did fight in any form it would probably be the ones they normally wore. However, we do know that Melkor had exceedingly great power above his peers for his host "contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth [p. 26] He was one Vala on his side, no other, and it is said of the highest Valar alone, "Nine were of chief power and reverence... in majesty they were peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and Maiar, or of any other order that Illuvatar has sent into Ea." [p. 23] Melkor was among these 9 so he was not only fighting against 8 Valar who could not be matched by any other Vala or creature, none of his servants could contend with them, but he also fought with the lesser Valar and all those other Maiar some of whom were "well nigh as great as" [p. 12] the Valar. What does confound me is how Tulkas who is not even counted as among the highest of the Valar beat Melkor. In his final overthrow when much of his power was spent and he bacame bound to the earth I do not even think a Valar was needed to chain him up! Still before that, I'm not sure how Tulkas beat him. To your question again the Valar wore the forms that were like that of the COI they beheld in the vision, but in a grander way, even though those forms hid their powers. __________________ "For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche

01-09-2013, 08:44 AM	#4
Avanti Banned Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 6	the valar are avatars of eru fractals of the greater consciousness their bodies are mere clothes melkor desiring separatedness merged with matter and was thus unable to change form tolkien was not a polytheist my own view is a mix of the tolkienesque and the lovecraftian

01-09-2013, 12:28 PM	#6
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,034	Technically Tolkien revised 'the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible' --> 'the host of the Gods were arrayed in forms of Valinor' The meaning of which I'm not exactly sure, but Christopher Tolkien published: 'for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible' But some have wondered if perhaps the Valar themselves did not attend Despite the resulting devastation to Beleriand.