Which Vala tripped Gollum?

[Pervinca Took]

No definitive answer perhaps, but what is your personal guess?

Which Vala do you think caused Gollum to teeter on the edge of the Sammath Naur?

Eru himself would have commanded it, perhaps, but to whom might he have delegated the task? And how many of the Valar were watching, and how many of them exerted their powers in those final minutes? Who put it into Frodo and Sam's minds, as they rested on the slopes of Orodruin, that they must get up and push on to the Cracks of Doom, before it was too late.

My guess would be Manwe, perhaps (regarding Gollum's sudden loss of balance). Ulmo seems to intervene more than most in the fates of the peoples of Middle-earth, but I'd find it difficult to imagine him keeping watch around a parched, waterless land. Unless he had taken it upon himself to watch from the Sea of Nurnen.

Et vous?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

No definitive answer perhaps, but what is your personal guess?

Which Vala do you think caused Gollum to teeter on the edge of the Sammath Naur?

Eru himself would have commanded it, perhaps, but to whom might he have delegated the task? And how many of the Valar were watching, and how many of them exerted their powers in those final minutes? Who put it into Frodo and Sam's minds, as they rested on the slopes of Orodruin, that they must get up and push on to the Cracks of Doom, before it was too late.

My guess would be Manwe, perhaps (regarding Gollum's sudden loss of balance). Ulmo seems to intervene more than most in the fates of the peoples of Middle-earth, but I'd find it difficult to imagine him keeping watch around a parched, waterless land. Unless he had taken it upon himself to watch from the Sea of Nurnen.

Et vous?

How do you know any of them did? I mean, couldn't Gollum just have tripped and fell?

[urbanhiker]

I'm with Nerwen on this one. Fate steered Gollum's feet, just like Fate steered Bilbo's hands in the dark under the Misty Mountains. The event had already been played out in the great music of the Ainur before time, and like the rest of the world and everything in it, was merely the physically manifested playback of their music.

[Oddwen]

I don't know about that. Aule was famous for leaving tools lying around his workspace, and Sauron learned much from him. That might be a stretch, but that's as close as you're going to get without Tolkien verifying it in one of the histories.

[littlemanpoet]

I think Gollum tripped himself. Oh, but then that would make Gollum a Vala. Hmmm......

[sneha]

I think Manwe. If there was water around I would have definitely gone with Ulmo!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think Gollum tripped himself. Oh, but then that would make Gollum a Vala. Hmmm......

Actually, I used to wonder if Gollum hadn't in fact committed suicide by deliberately stepping close to the brink of the chasm and looking away. I rejected that when I read in HOME that Tolkien had considered that idea and decided against it. Still, maybe Gollum didn't make himself fall, but at the same time didn't care if he did. He could die with the Precious and save Frodo at the same time if it happened. And then Fate was free to finish things...

[Calacirya]

In a corny sort of way, I like to think that there was no involvement on behalf of the Valar, especially considering Gollum's trip over the edge in Sammath Naur.

I think that in some aspects Tolkien wanted to believe that bad things would come to bad people. In the Middle Earth universe, it can be argued that everything is very simple. Good people are good, bad people are bad, some people can change, and every once in a while there's a grey area.
I also believe he had this mindset because he always thought so fondly of the idea of Goodness, and it permeated his work. Frodo was the only one who could carry the ring because he was so good that he was not easily corrupted. Or at least, he was supposed to represent all that was good, as any soldier going to war for the right reasons.
Also, I believe it was a coping mechanism. It's easier to believe that good conquers all, even when all hope is lost, as it was in Sammath Naur when Gollum had the ring.

I suppose it could also be in the Music of the Ainur, as it did redound in the splendor of Eru's greater plan. I just like to think, and I think Tolkien, too, thought, that sometimes Good happens in this world.

[Galadriel55]

Just had a thought. I think all the opinions fall into one of the two groups - Gollum's fall is just a fall and Gollum's fall is caused by fate. But who controls that fate? It sure could be a Vala(r) or Eru, but do you think that fate it such a thing that it lies even above them, or at least independent from them?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Just had a thought. I think all the opinions fall into one of the two groups - Gollum's fall is just a fall and Gollum's fall is caused by fate. But who controls that fate? It sure could be a Vala(r) or Eru, but do you think that fate it such a thing that it lies even above them, or at least independent from them?

Regarding this, whereas Fate is a recurring theme, let's not also forget that the history of Middle-Earth, resp. Arda was in many ways still capable of "transcending" or overcoming fate. It is hard to say what exactly Tolkien meant by fate, whether that was supposed to be the "laws of the world set by the Music of the Ainur", or something else. However, in Ainulindalë, one of the crucial points on this topic says that

the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

So that makes is clear that "fate" is something, in my opinion, that is above Valar or at the same level with Valar (somehow, Vairë and Mandos come to my mind in relation with this), but Eru is still above fate, that's for sure.

Even though - and now I'm getting from a slightly different direction back to the original topic of this thread - actually I would say Gollum's slipping falls into this cathegory of "things that have no foretelling". Because by simple laws of causality, one would have expected Gollum to claim the Ring and walk away happily, where some Nazgul would fall on him, take him to Sauron and Sauron would rule Middle-Earth. Therefore, in fact, if asked which of the Valar caused the slip, I would say neither, since it is exactly "outside the realm of generally expected possibilities", which would imply Eru, and no other mediator involved. But personally, I am with G55 and others who prefer to have the "unanswered question". It simply happened, and that's how I believe it is supposed to be perceived. Seeking an agent behind all this is unnecessary, and maybe even misleading.

[Zigûr]

I would agree that I don't believe Gollum's fall was the action of any Vala. The will of Eru was, perhaps, responsible, but in a deeply abstract and complex way - not as if Eru (or indeed one of the Powers) exerted some "telekinetic force" to push him in.