Glorfindel reincarnated

[elbenprincess]

When Glorfindel was reincarnated it is said that he become almost the equal of the maia.

Then it is said that Galadriel was

the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-Earth

Is Glorfindel included in the "elves that remained" or is he a special case, cause his power increased.

I know that´s the old boring power debate, but today I´m somehow interested in that and would like to know what you think about that.

[Galadriel55]

Interesting question, elbenprincess!

I think that Glorfindel technically did not remain. He dies before anyone was given the choice to go or to stay. And then he came back. He's a pretty unique case.


Where does Tolkien say that Glorfindel was almost like a maia? I don't recall reading that part.

[elbenprincess]

There isn´t written the quote, but I guess it is from UT

Glorfindel’s spirit passed to the Halls of Mandos, where he waited with the spirits of the other Noldor who had died during their war against Morgoth. But because of Glorfindel’s noble actions in life, his reluctance at the Exile, and his furthering of the purposes of the Valar by saving Tuor and Idril, he was re-embodied after only a short time. He had redeemed himself, and was purged of any guilt. Not only did his sacrifice get him an early pardon, it earned him great powers, so that he was almost an equal to the maiar.

That is indeed remarable and true he came back to ME but then he remained until the end of the third age ( theoretical he could have left ME at every time, of course he wouldn´t) so I would think that he is included in the quote of Galadriel being the mightiest among the remaining elves. And he was "only" almost equal of the Maiar and Galadriel is doubtless very powerful herself and from what we see in LOTR more powerful than Glorfindel IMO.

And for the fairest part, would that make her more beautiful than Arwen or is she not included in that quote being half elven? Wasn´t arwen an elf until she decided to beong to the mortals?

[Galadriel55]

I would think that "the Elves that remained in Middle-Earth" refers to those who did not depart to Valinor after the destruction of Beleriand. This would include Galadriel but not Glorfindel.


As for the "fairest" part, go ask Gimli and Eomer who is more beautiful.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

As for the "fairest" part, go ask Gimli and Eomer who is more beautiful.

Indeed! Tolkien here seems to be speaking in the style of medieval romance in which exaggeration is expected when referring to female (and male) beauty, particularly when speaking of upper-class beauty, and in particular when speaking of a heroine or hero. This is part of courtesy.

Sir Thomas Malory in his Le Morte d’Arthur makes fun of this in Book IX, chapter 14 in which Sir Melliagaunce, who is in love with Queen Gueniver [sic], is prepared to do single combat with Sir Lamorak/Lamerok, who is in love with Queen Morgause of Orkeney, to prove in battle which lady is the more beautiful. Just at that moment Sir Launcelot wanders by with his kinsman Sir Bleoberis. Sir Launcelot is also in love with Queen Gueniver. When Sir Melliagaunce explains the cause of the proposed battle to Sir Launcelot, Sir Launcelot is furious with Sir Lamorak. Malory writes (spelling modernized from the Norton edition):

   ¶“A!” said Sir Launcelot, “Sir Lamorak, why sayest thou so? It is not thy part to dispraise thy princess that thou art under obeisance, and we all.”

   ¶And therewithal Sir Launcelot alit on foot. “And therefore make thee ready, for I will prove upon thee that Queen Gueniver is the fairest lady and most of bounty in the world.″ “Sir,” said Sir Lamorak, “I am loath to have ado with you in this quarrel, for every man thinkest his own lady fairest, and though I praise the lady that I love most ye should not be wroth—for though my lady Queen Gueniver be fairest in your eye, wit you well Queen Morgause of Orkeney is fairest in mine eye—and so every knight thinketh his own lady fairest. And wit you well, sir, ye are the man in the world except Sir Tristramis that I am most loathest to have ado withall; but, and ye will needs have ado with me, I shall endure you as long as I may.”

   ¶Then spake Sir Bleoberis and said, “My lord Sir Launcelot, I wist you never so misadvised as ye be at this time, for Sir Lamerok saith to you but reason and knightly. For I warn you, I have a lady, and methinketh that she is the fairest lady of the world:

   ¶“Were this a great reason that ye should be wroth with me for such language?—

   ¶“And well ye wot that Sir Lamorak is a noble knight as I know any living, and he hath owed you and all us ever good will; therefore, I pray you, be friends!” Then Sir Launcelot said: “Sir, I pray you, forgive me mine offence and evil will, and if I was misadvised I will make amends.” “Sir,” said Sir Lamerok, “the amends is soon made betwixt you and me.”

The fun is that although Lamorak is quite ready to fight against Melliagaunce to prove his lady’s beauty, Lamorak is suddenly less eager when he realizes that his opponent will instead be the incomparable Launcelot and starts making excuses. But Lamorak is still so brave as to be willing to fight if Launcelot really insists on it. Fortunately for Lamorak Launcelot is willing to listen to Bleoberis.

[Galin]

That quote appears to be someone's summation. I'm not quibbling with the wording but just to post Tolkien's actual phrasing...

This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel (...)

(...) We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'. For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born, and had then lived among the Elves who had never rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar for ages, to the end of the first millennium of the Third Age: before he returned to Middle-earth.

JRRT, Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Glorfindel I

That is Glorfindel I however, as Tolkien would revise that Glorfindel remained in Aman until the Third Age. And in Glorfindel II the wording is a bit different...

He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reuinion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II

Here Glorfindel returns in the Second Age rather, and 'more probably' as late as c. 1600 Second Age, the Year of Dread.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

When Glorfindel was reincarnated it is said that he become almost the equal of the maia.

Then it is said that Galadriel was

Is Glorfindel included in the "elves that remained" or is he a special case, cause his power increased.

I know that´s the old boring power debate, but today I´m somehow interested in that and would like to know what you think about that.

Glorfindel died before the end of the First Age. Elves like Galadriel chose not to return. Galadriel had no equal in Middle-earth among the Elves. The only one who was her equal was Feanor and he was said to be the ultimate Elf. Also from Morgoth's Ring it is said the reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [p. 222] Even so Feanor was said to be the greatest of all the Children of Illuvatar and Galadriel of all the others was on par with him. There are few instances of Elves taking on the Ainur, but there are none who're their equals though Gil-galad beat Sauron.

[Belegorn]

I should mention there were spirits of fire who joined Melkor. Glorfindel did defeat one and his companion Ecthelion defeated their Chief, Gothmog at the King's fountain. Both were killed as well but Glorfindel could have lived after defeating his Balrog. It happened to drag him down into the chasm with him as it died. In fact it seemed Glorfindel overpowered this balrog. So I might say there were few Elves of this class and they were probably pretty close in power to the lesser Maiar. So Glorfindel did find himself the equal of a Maia and I think the Balrogs were such as the Maia who drives the sun is also a spirit of fire.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I should mention there were spirits of fire who joined Melkor. Glorfindel did defeat one and his companion Ecthelion defeated their Chief, Gothmog at the King's fountain. Both were killed as well but Glorfindel could have lived after defeating his Balrog.

Just as a side-note, you could argue that Ecthelion likewise "could" have lived. From the old tale of Gondolin's fall (Book of Lost Tales) he drove the spike on his helmet into Gothmog's chest and they fell into the fountain of Turgon (which appears to have been deep) and both died there. If he could have released his helmet and been hauled out, there's no indication he couldn't also have lived.

[elbenprincess]

Here Glorfindel returns in the Second Age rather, and 'more probably' as late as c. 1600 Second Age, the Year of Dread.
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I didn´t know that, so he arrives without the Istari in that version?

[Galin]

In my personal version Glorfindel arrives without the Istari, yes.

There are a couple of late notes however, one which says that Glorfindel met Gandalf at the Havens, and generally notes that the Wizards did not come at the same time. But another of these notes relates that the 'other two' came much earlier: '... at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.' Christopher Tolkien footnotes Glorfindell II here, and 'about the year 1600' for the date.

But as Tolkien had already published (Appendix B) that the Istari appeared in Middle-earth in the Third Age, I accept Glorfindel's return date as around Second Age 1600, but not this date for the 'other two' wizards -- called the 'Blue Wizards' often enough although I'm still not sure Tolkien himself stuck to this term.

That said I rather like the idea of Glorfindel sailing with Gandalf, but Tolkien appears to have revised this in the second form of his late musings about Glorfindel.