Why where the Teleri Ships Irreplaceable?

[Maédhros]

When Olwë refuses to help Fëanor and the Noldor he states:

But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.

Why couldn't they make new ships, were they lazy? Did they suddenly forgot how to do it? Didn't they have raw materials? Or is it just a lie!

maybe they were such a perfect creation that they would be impossible to replicate.

[Heen-1]

i think they said that because each one was unique, as were the gems of the noldor.not everyone was the same, and each person created his/hers differently.

i doubt that if they liked them so much they were just plain ships.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Perhaps, in a strange way, it is a bit like the making of the Ring itself. If you put so much of yourself into an object, whether for good or evil, that object becomes unique, a reflection of who you are. Some of your being actually passes into it. Should that object be destroyed, it can not simply be remade, even though you may have the raw materials to fashion a new item.

In our own world, I would thing of something like Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling.
If something (God forbid!) were to happen to that work of art, no amount of our modern skill or knowledge could truly remake that ceiling and its pictures.

Now, we usually think of art or music or writing being a distinctive composition which can't easily be replaced. But why not a ship? If there are pieces of architecture, like Salisbury or Notre Dame Cathedral, which are so unique to be irreplacable, then why not a ship which is a piece of marine architecture?

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Child of the 7th Age, I was going to say the same thing. The ships were art, albeit functional, and meant a lot to their makers.

[TarElendil]

Osse taught the Teleri much of ship-building and these were said to be the finest ships ever created. As said earlier, they put their heart and the love for the water and Valar in the creation of the boats. They would never give them such a precious thing to anyone willingly. Maybe you can say those boats were to the Teleri as the Silmarils were to Feanor, but on a lesser scale.

[akhtene]

TarElendil, why do you think that Telleri should value their ships less than Feanor valued Silmarils? Every artist values his/her creation on the same great scale. And,maybe, such words were the reflection of Feanor's words who refsed to give the Silmarils to save the Trees.

[Losthuniel]

the ships were like the Silmarils of the Teleri. There was a 'law' that each being was allowed one great work in Ea. the ships were the Teleri's, the Silmarils were Feanor's, the Stars were Varda's . Just like Feanor could never remake the Silmarils (being dead doesnt help, but theoretically) the Teleri could never remake their ships.

[Elrian]

There was a 'law' that each being was allowed one great work in Ea.

That's funny it wasn't stated in the books [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

As the Silmarils were to Feanor, so were the ships to Olwe and his people. Would you give some hot headed, overbearing, egotistical maniac your most prized possessions?
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Losthuniel]

drat! WHERE is my copy of the Silmarillion when i need it?!?! but i think Varda said something to the effect of "it is given to each to have one great work" or something to that effect. that is why the Teleri couldnt make new ships that would be quite the same as before.

[Elrian]

Aule must have been an exception to the rule as well as Varda who made many stars, as well as the sun and moon.

[Losthuniel]

yes, but Feanor made three Silmarils, and Celebrinbor made three Rings. they all came in 'sets'. the Stars and the Silmrils all constitute one work, even though there were many 'peices'

[Maédhros]

Would you give some hot headed, overbearing, egotistical maniac your most prized possessions?

Why couldn't the Teleri provide safe passage to the Noldor. Was it not Finwe that argued with the Valar so that the Teleri would finally come to Valinor? Is that too much to ask. Couldn't they provide a ferry passage to them in ME like they did in the War of Wrath at the end of the Quenta Silmarillion.

Few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war, for they remembered the slaying at the Swan-haven, and the rape of their ships; but they hearkened to Elwing, who was the daughter of Dior Eluchíl and come of their own kindred, and they sent mariners enough to sail the ships that bore the host of Valinor east over the sea. Yet they stayed aboard their vessels, and none of them set foot upon the Hither Lands.

[TarElendil]

TarElendil, why do you think that Telleri should value their ships less than Feanor valued Silmarils?

I meant it in the way that feanor was very proud and very GREEDY about the Silmarils. He was very egotistical. he locked away the gems at times and grudged the looking upon them of others. I shouldve used, they loved them in a different way.

[TarElendil]

and also, about feanor not giving the silmarils to save the trees. Feanor was at Valimar when they asked him to give up the silmarils for the two trees. In the text it says he thought about giving them to the valar. While this was happening Melko had been at Formenos, killed Finwe, and stole the Silmarils. He never said that the valar couldnt have the silmarils for the trees.

[akhtene]

Perhaps Telleri were not willing or couldn't leave Valinor even for a short time necessary to take the Noldor across the sea on their ships (for fear of sharing the Doom of Noldor) And to entrst their precious ships to hot- headed and evidently cursed kinsfolk ... so much has been said.

[Elrian]

Was it not Finwe that argued with the Valar so that the Teleri would finally come to Valinor?

No, the Teleri were invited just like the Noldor and the Vanyar, Finwe did not argue for them. All three kindreds sent representatives to Valinor before any of them made the journey. Elwe and Olwe represented the Teleri.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[akhtene]

To TarElendil: yes, I agree that Feanor's passion for the stones was greater, but still I think that the Telleri's pride and love for their ships was not less, the more so that they were the creation the people, not a single craftsman, and were admired by everyone of them.
About Feanor and Silmarils

He never said that the valar couldnt have the silmarils for the trees.

He probably couldn't say exactly this to Valar. What he said was:

This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is if their kindred

To me it sounds like giving in to power, not a free-will agreement

[TarElendil]

yes, but he did not refuse the silmarils to the valar which was my point in the first place. I doubt not the teleri loved their ships as much as feanor the silmarils. But feanor loved the silmarils in a very very greedy way. He disliked anyone to look at them save his father and sons.

[Maédhros]

No, the Teleri were invited just like the Noldor and the Vanyar, Finwe did not argue for them.

When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of the Noldor and of Finwë their king. Who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now willing indeed

Yes, Finwë did argue for the Teleri for them to finally come to Aman.

[Elrian]

But not for them to come initially to Valinor. It was they who chose to linger. Still why should the Teleri give up their ships? Would Feanor have given them the Silmarils? No way.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Maédhros]

Still why should the Teleri give up their ships?

And i say again, why couldn't they:

Few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war, for they remembered the slaying at the Swan-haven, and the rape of their ships; but they hearkened to Elwing, who was the daughter of Dior Eluchíl and come of their own kindred, and they sent mariners enough to sail the ships that bore the host of Valinor east over the sea. Yet they stayed aboard their vessels, and none of them set foot upon the Hither Lands.

Was that so difficult to do. They wouldn't have given them their ships, just provide safe passage to ME.

[Belin]

I think the quote you’re thinking of, Losthuniel, is this one:

Even for those who are mightiest under Iluvatar there is some work they may accomplish once, and once only. The light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Ea I can do so never again.

It’s Yavanna, and she’s speaking of her Trees, which have been destroyed and which she can’t remake. Feanor says something similar about the Silmarils, which she’s asking him to give up:

For the less even as the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart.

The Teleri equivalent of this sentiment is quoted by Maedhros at the beginning of this thread. The interesting thing is that Feanor is asking of them just exactly what he’d refused Yavanna—and he certainly refused: if you’re confused by his “This thing I will not do of my free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred,” you’ve only to look a little further down the page to “had he said yea at first…his after deeds might have been other than they were”—and he doesn’t even seem to realize it. That’s Feanor for you; he’s in it for Feanor. Furthermore, his desire is actually less worthy than hers, since she wants to restore the trees and bring light to everyone, while he just wants his revenge, and if possible to get his jewels back so he can hide them in his basement again. She wants to work toward the good of all and asks him to make a sacrifice to that end; he refuses, but he goes on to ask the Teleri to make a similar sacrifice for Feanor’s own good. No surprise, then, that they refuse, but I do like the irony.

And the sense that the Teleri owe the Noldor something (though it may not be the original admission to Valinor) is certainly important—Feanor makes that very argument, telling them that they’d renounced their friendship. And of course the feeling of kinship is very strong since they’ve worked together for so long and they’ve intermarried and all. But as to safe passage, Maedhros, keep in mind that Feanor is already tainted by his oath, and has declared himself an enemy of the Valar. The curse of Mandos hasn’t come on him yet, but I suspect that the Teleri had at least some idea that to participate in his wild schemes was to defy the Valar and probably to lose something for it, and unlike Feanor, they wouldn’t do that for any kinship.

Did I miss anything?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Gandalf_theGrey]

* applauds Belin's insightful words *

[Maédhros]

keep in mind that Feanor is already tainted by his oath, and has declared himself an enemy of the Valar.

Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

'Why, O people of the Noldor,' he cried, 'why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their Enemy? And though he be now their foe, are not they and he of one kin? Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the thief of my treasure. Yet I am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your King? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the mountains and the sea?

He doesn't declare himself an enemy of the Valar, he was simply very angry with them for not doing enough to stop Melkor.

but I suspect that the Teleri had at least some idea that to participate in his wild schemes was to defy the Valar and probably to lose something for it, and unlike Feanor, they wouldn’t do that for any kinship.

Yet they lost something by not helping the Noldor all the same.

[Losthuniel]

Yes, thats the one, Belin.

[Belin]

Thank you, Gandalf. And Losthuniel, glad to help. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

That was his rhetoric, Maedhros (and what a magnificent rhetorician he was!), but he was, in fact, in open rebellion against the Valar.

He claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwe was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar.
"Why, O people of the Noldor," he cried, "why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their Enemy? And though he be now their foe, are not they and he of one kin? Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father’s slayer and of the thief of my treasure.

So in his own thinly veiled way he identifies them with Melkor, as enemies. He's angry with them not just because they're not helping him enough but also because they are related to his enemy and seem to him equivalent. The other Noldor recognize that Feanor is overstepping boundaries, as there are some that refused to go "for the love that they bore to the Valar." Manwe’s herald tells them not to go, so we know that the Valar are not in favor of this course of action.

The Teleri were thinking of this as well: "no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar."

Yet they lost something by not helping the Noldor all the same.

You mean their ships, their lives, and their alliance? Yes, true, but they didn’t know that Feanor was going to attack them. He’d been speaking of friendship, and then he went away and came back with an army.

Besides, look what Feanor lost; he was exiled. The Teleri got to remain in the grace of the Valar.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[Maédhros]

The Teleri were thinking of this as well: "no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar."

The Teleri chose the Valar over their kin.

Besides, look what Feanor lost; he was exiled. The Teleri got to remain in the grace of the Valar.

Feanor dared to go against a Valar until his very end. He dared to be great.

[akhtene]

So everyone made their choice and paid for it dearly.

On the whole "The Silmarillion' to my mind is the book about choice the characters have to make and how they pay for it (or rewarded, which seems much too seldom)

[Naaramare]

He dared to be great.

He dared to swear an oath that killed all but one of his sons and drove the last utterly mad. He dared to slaughter his kin--and if they were wrong for refusing him the boats, he was a thousand times more wrong for raising sword against them.

Somehow, I don't think his particular brand of "greatness" is really something that should be emulated.

[Maédhros]

He dared to swear an oath that killed all but one of his sons and drove the last utterly mad. He dared to slaughter his kin--and if they were wrong for refusing him the boats, he was a thousand times more wrong for raising sword against them.

What mattered is that he dared to do what he thought was the course of action to meet his end. His purpouse was such that anything came in second to his goal.
The deeds were bad, the concept of following your goals is not.

[Kuruharan]

What mattered is that he dared to do what he thought was the course of action to meet his end. His purpouse was such that anything came in second to his goal.
The deeds were bad, the concept of following your goals is not.

While I agree with the spirit of that statement, I have to say that there are some goals that should not be followed through to completion.

Like, for instance, defying the resident divine beings, swearing an oath calling down the Everlasting Dark if you fail to accomplish your goal (a bit of self-doubt that you can accomplish all your goals can be a healthy thing), and then when you are at death's door, knowing that your cause will fail, still urging your followers to strive for a goal that can't be accomplished.

Those sorts of goals probably ought not to be the driving object of one's life.

In other words, some ends are not worth it.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Belin]

I think, actually, that part of the problem was that his own personal stake in what was to be done became far too important. What was his goal? To defeat Morgoth? The Valar also wanted to defeat Morgoth, but he wouldn’t work with them or try to understand their efforts. Or perhaps his goal was to regain the Silmarils, or to avenge his father, but he went about it in a way that seemed likely to achieve nothing more than the glory of Feanor. This quote particularly struck me:

Feanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself; and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared; but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath.

He’s very careless about whether he actually wins this battle. He’s just enjoying the prospect of vengeance, which is to say, proving that he is greater than Morgoth, and possibly thwacking him around as much as possible because he can.

In fact, the Valar had told him right off that he couldn’t win, but he wanted to prove them wrong, too. (He suggests that he thinks he can outdo them when he says "we will go further than Orome, endure longer than Tulkas"—not to mention the implications of "No other race shall oust us!") What we have here is a very brash, somewhat childish character whose pride makes him behave in ways that are, quite frankly, insane.

Pride is linked to greatness, and it’s often destructive in Tolkien. Feanor’s greatness reminds me of Melkor’s, whose part in the song somebody’s brilliant sig (can’t remember who, sorry) paraphrases as LALALALAMEMEMEMEMEMEMELALALA…. Melkor, like Feanor, certainly becomes interested in the beautiful thing created, but each of them wants to use it to prop up his own glory, and it is this that estranges each of them from the Valar. They are great in a literal as well as a figurative sense; they’re big, they take up a lot of social space, and they can hardly see past the tips of their noses. They pursue their goals for the sake of glory.

Furthermore, I’m still not convinced that the Teleri were wrong to deny the use of their ships. The Valar are not only powerful, but also right. Olwe reminds us that "it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend’s folly." He can see Feanor’s error and doesn’t want to embroil him further in it. To say that they "chose the Valar over their own kin" assumes that they would have been doing him a favor to give him a ride. I’m not sure it would be.

Besides, as Naaramare points out, Feanor is hardly a model of good intra-family relationships himself. He bound his sons to an evil oath, slaughtered the Teleri, and, for no apparent reason, stranded Fingolfin’s people almost as soon as he got to Middle-Earth.

Note: After writing all this out, I saw Kuruharan’s post-- very similar to what I wanted to say, but so much more concise! Ah, well.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Kuruharan]

Oh, not really.

Actually I was coming back to mention Feanor's lack of trust in the Valar, but you covered that pretty well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

Melkor, like Feanor, certainly becomes interested in the beautiful thing created, but each of them wants to use it to prop up his own glory, and it is this that estranges each of them from the Valar.

There is a difference of course, while Melkor coveted things not made by him, Feanor created them. Feanor really had no equal in the arts of crafts.
A point that is also missing is the responsability of the Valar in this.

Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever.

The Valar, Manwë was deceived by Melkor and it allowed him the chance to poison the minds of the Noldor and make them proud.
Fëanor, because of his uniqueness, was the most that was affected by it and because he was the target of Melkor's lies.

Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart. From that time forth, inflamed by this desire, he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Fëanor and end the friendship of the Valar and the Elves

The lack of foresight of the Valar (Manwë) had terrible consequences for the Elves and ME in general.

[Kuruharan]

The lack of foresight of the Valar (Manwë) had terrible consequences for the Elves and ME in general.

Yes, this is very true. As a matter of fact I once went through a rather lengthy thread arguing this very point.

However...

It does not excuse Feanor from doing the wrong thing. He still defied the divine authorities that were placed above him, advocated and then took part in the killing of his own kind, abandoned the majority of his people in a wilderness, and then at the end when he saw that this cause would fail he still urged his sons on in pursuit of this mad goal.

These were all his own decisions that led to much suffering on the part of the Elves.

[akhtene]

It does not excuse Feanor from doing the wrong thing. He still defied the divine authorities that were placed above him

Oh, nothing excuses the one who defies authorities [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
It is said that only he never makes mistakes who does nothing. The Valar in dealings with Melkor made no mistakes because they did mothing to stop his evil deeds (didn't they know anything about them?) Or did they leave the whole world to suffer just because of one elf's folly? A nice sort of excuse. So probably Feanor (impatient and hot-tempered as he was) felt that he had simply nobody to rely on, but himself and those who would follow. His actions can be called rash and stubborn, but at least they are ACTIONS

[Losthuniel]

even after all the bad things that came about because of him, i still pity Feanor. the bit in the Sil about the darkening of Valinor made me cry *ducks head as people laugh at her* he had faults, and unfortunatly, they were of the worst kind. he loved the Silmarils, (too much) and he wanted to keep them from harm. they were his one great work, and quite frankly, i dont blame him . but he was rather obsessive about them. i can understand wanting to keep them from harm, but he was a little bit maniacal. it was understandable of him to go after Morgoth, seeing as he killed his father, took the Silmarils, and destroyed his house (the last one is an is think)then his temper came out, and he did a stupid thing an swore his oath. and i think that his sons swore it of their own accord, but im no expert.

[TarElendil]

they were his one great work

you mean his greatest work? he created many great things such as the palantiri.

[Losthuniel]

Feanor made the Palantri? (note to self: finish Sil)