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05-28-2012, 06:30 PM | #1 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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The Lesser Rings
Realizing that it's probably been a couple of years since I posted on a thread and certainly much longer than that since I started one, I decided to pose a question that has long puzzled me, or at least made me curious.
In "The Shadow of the Past," Gandalf tells Frodo: Quote:
I'm also wondering what might have become of them. It's logical to think that they were not all left behind in Hollin when the elves took the Three and fled from Sauron. Despite considering them "trifles," they must have taken at least some of them with them or Gandalf would not know about them, or at least he would not bother to mention them or consider them "dangerous for mortals." Is there any evidence of any elves using any of these rings at the time of the War of the Ring? I'm sure that if they knew enough to refrain from wearing the Three while Sauron still held the One, they would have known to forgo the use of these rings as well. After all, they were included in "all" referred to in the ring poem (One ring to rule them all.)Might they have been distributed to anyone else, and, if so, to whom? Is anyone using any of them? If Sauron did seize any of these lesser rings from his initial raid on Hollin, do any of his servants in the war of the Ring show any minimally enhanced abilities? Finally, does Tolkien provide any more detailed information about these lesser rings beyond the tiny bits of text that merely indicate their existence?
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05-28-2012, 08:28 PM | #2 |
Gruesome Spectre
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This is something that's crossed my mind from time to time as I've read and re-read LOTR over the years.
I don't at the moment recall any other mention of the "lesser rings" apart from Gandalf's words to Frodo in the passage you cite. If I'm wrong, I'll no doubt be swiftly set straight. My thought would be that they were efforts of the Noldor to make rings with the same powers as the later Three: preservation and healing power. It seems logical that their dabbling in such matters made them all the more susceptible to Sauron's offer of aid, if it didn't in fact give Sauron the impetus to make his own rings. I guess it's possible some of them escaped the ruin of Eregion and were in use by Elves in the Third Age. Maybe in Mirkwood, by Thranduil? There would be no danger from the One. The "trifles", it would seem, were not, like the Three, made using Sauron's knowledgeable advice, so they should have been free from the influence of the One. It seems a recurring theme in the ME mythos that desire, and utilization of, power beyond one's innate abilities is a dangerous thing, and we see mortals, and Men especially, easily corrupted by "power". That alone would explain Gandalf's worries to me. If the lesser rings had the powers I posited, I don't see Sauron having any desire to possess them for any reason. All he was about was domination through the use of power.
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05-29-2012, 02:34 AM | #3 |
Pilgrim Soul
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I can't think of any references to them either (which doesn't mean there aren't any!) but I assumed the trial rings were part of Tolkien's idea to create a plausible mythology for England. Magic rings are part of folklore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_ring
and I supposed that these lesser rings gave the rings of the myths of the real world a Middle Earth origin - just as the lesser sprites. spirits and fairies of "true" folklore can be reconciled to the houseless Fea of elves who refused the call to Mandos at death or to the lingering diminished elves faded almost away.
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05-29-2012, 05:28 AM | #4 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Interesting topic and thoughts this far, everyone!
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I can see endless possibilities with the lesser rings. Many could have found their way to the hands of men, Dwarves, Orcs... after all, Eregion was sacked, it was inevitable that there would occur things like "Sauron's Captain X killed certain Elven smith - took his ring for himself - later, he was randomly killed while raiding Dwarves from Moria - Dwarves took it - later, the owner was killed when Orcs sacked Moria - etc etc..." So the Rings really could have scattered throughout Middle-Earth. I also think it very likely that Saruman would have gotten his hands on at least a couple of the lesser rings (surely he would be very keen to follow any remark of "hey, this and that guy might own a Ring, let's check it out"), given his interest in Ring-lore, he might have "dissected them" in order to learn how they are made (cf. Gandalf's words about white light broken ). I do not entirely agree with Inziladun on the power issue. Sure, usurping power for yourself through various means is a bad thing in M-E, but we see these limits crossed many times, especially by proud and gifted people, which the Ring-makers certainly were. Even without the corruption by Sauron, such Rings could have been made. In any case, I don't see why the lesser rings would only be made to preserve like the Elven ones; after all, the Three were made for special purpose, but these were not, they were experiments - so the Elves could make them do all sorts of things, where they were just testing what they can do. That could, in fact, have produced even more interesting results than the "true" Rings, because the Elves did not make them with specific purpose - or with necessary the same results they expected. (As in: "I want to make a Ring which will allow me speak with animals, but I have never done that before - lo, I just managed to create a ring that will transform me into a bear!" This might be a bit exaggerated example, but I hope you got the point...)
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05-29-2012, 06:59 AM | #5 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Originally posted by Inziladun:
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Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc: Quote:
Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc: Quote:
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05-29-2012, 08:51 AM | #6 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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One possibility is Saruman actually never made his own ring, but found one of the lesser rings and attempted to use it. He most likely would have continued to study the ring in a further attempt to make his own. Whether Saruman made a ring, or found one, it is clear that the result was like one of the "lesser rings."
In an earlier draft of Gandalf's discussion with Frodo in The Shire, there seems to be more evidence Saruman made the ring he wore: Quote:
However, this is not in the final text, and I think in the final versions, the evidence that Saruman crafted his Ring gets even slimmer. All that's mentioned is Gandalf suspected Saruman was close to the secrets of their making, but no confirmation that he had succeeded. In fact, it appears there were still some "missing links" in Saruman's study of ring-making: Quote:
It is only Saruman, who in a boast declares: Quote:
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05-30-2012, 11:25 AM | #7 |
Itinerant Songster
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I think Mithalwen has one of the keys to this mystery.
I also think it worthwhile to distinguish between the Elvish Arts and Dark Sorcery. The former the Elves did not even name "magic", whereas the latter were not called "magic" either, but sorcery. Is there reference to the Dark Arts in the ouvre? The "Mouth of Sauron" delved in sorcery, says Tolkien somewhere, thus his long years, I think. A ring to explain Beorn shape shifting? I doubt it. I think, again, it's too mechanistic an approach to the way Tolkien did his myth making. If you look at his mythic sources, there were shape shifters aplenty and they needed no ring. As for the lesser rings, is not the template is the Silmarils rather than anything Sauron might contrive? Thus, it requires that the Elves must take from either themselves (their own spirits/fea), or take something from nature/Arda and form it into a ring. So perhaps anything that something from nature could do, they made their "trifle" rings to be able to do? |
05-30-2012, 12:34 PM | #8 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
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Therefore, I am inclined to believe the lesser Rings could be attempts to make one able to e.g. speak with animals like in my previous example (Elves were known for their love in teaching creatures to speak etc, and also understanding was very important for them, at least in their prime); or could enable the bearer to, I don't know, "boost ambient light" or something (along the lines of that you walk into a room lit by a couple of dim candles and then you use your Ring - however one does that - and lo, it seems as if the sunlight had pierced... you get the point), most of all (isn't it even implied somewhere?) to boost one's skills in e.g. singing, or crafting itself (so, one could wear a Ring that would help him make better Rings, or make "magic" weapons akin to the ones of Gondolin, etc.). Quote:
I think what happened with Sauron coming into the process was that he started showing the Elves how to upgrade their works, but also he started slowly introducing his own concepts into them; once you start operating with "control", you are slipping to the sorcery side.
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05-30-2012, 01:15 PM | #9 |
Itinerant Songster
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I like the idea of "trifles too dangerous for Men."
Question is, why too dangerous for men? Because of our penchant for turning things toward power and control? Or is it because being Elvish, they are simply too much for us? Consider a ring that turns one invisible - if it could do nothing else. In the hands of a Hobbit (closely related to Men), did anything happen that was not as it should have been? (I think the answer to this question is actually pretty easy). |
05-30-2012, 01:23 PM | #10 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Originally posted by littlemanpoet:
Quote:
littlemanpoet: Quote:
elempi: Quote:
elempi again: Quote:
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. Last edited by radagastly; 06-01-2012 at 05:51 PM. |
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05-30-2012, 03:06 PM | #11 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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I'm not sure how much help this will be, because it's specifically about the "great" Rings of Power, and not the lesser rings (which there is just such scant info on). But Gandalf says something interesting about the Rings of Power (excluding the One):
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Furthermore, with the Rings of Power (again excluding the One), Gandalf says "proper gem," which suggests the gem was instrumental, or in some way an important factor in the powers of the rings. For example, Vilya, the Ring of Air, was adorned with a sapphire. Of Manwe: Quote:
Quote:
I don't want to tangent too far away from the lesser rings, but is it too much speculation to say whatever purposes the lesser rings were made for, the maker did not set in the "proper gem." Or perhaps no gem at all? Then again, the One has no gem, and it is the most powerful Ring of the bunch; being a simple band of gold. I haven't the faintest clue where this leads the discussion, but I do think at least in ring-crafting (within the context of Middle-earth)...each having a gem is important to the rings' powers.
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05-30-2012, 03:22 PM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I like some of the theories about the lesser rings. The one peril I see is that, once you start thinking that way, you start seeing rings at the root of all thing. Say the idea of a ring that helps make enchanted weapons. I can imagine such a ring winding up amoung the men of Cardolan; perhaps being the key to their ability to make weapons unusually good at dealing with things like the Nazgul. Or say, a ring that puts you in tune with the plants, handy for conversing with any Ents who might be around in thier native tounge and getting on thier good sides (I suddenly have an image of a young elf wandering through the woods with such a ring, (in Sindarin) "I Talk to the Trees".
Finally we get to the animal talking ring theorized. If such a ring did exist, I can imagine somewhere it might have been, and, regrettably, the damage it might have done. It is based on a theory I have, just follow me. Gandalf describes the rings as perilous. I think it possible that thier peril may run a bit deeper than that proposed by the people above. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think that even the lesser rings may have had a touch of Sauron's taint. I don't think the elves considered making rings of power until Sauron proposed the idea. So while it is true that only the major rings were directly under his control, it is possible that even the first attemps had a little of him in them, and so had a dark side. Therefore I think that it is possible that, while a lesser ring would not put someone in Sauron's thrall, it might corrupt them no matter who they were. Specifically, I am thinking of Radagast, and his fall from his mission. Suppose at some point, Radagast had gotten his hands on a "talk to the animals" ring, for some reason or other (maybe he though being able to talk to the animals would help his mission) The ring does indeed let him talk to and understand the animals. However, the more he uses it, the more he loves the animals, until finally, they are more important to him than his stated mission, and he strays from his intended path. One problem with this idea is of course the fact that Saruman would presumably take such a ring from Radagast, given his interest in ringlore. On the other hand, Saruman, if he was already well learned in the lore, might consider such a ring too weak to trifle with, or of no practical use to himself (Saruman after all, really does not love nature (in fact, he basically hates it) and so the abiklity to get closer to it woul likey not appeal to him much. The only proposed power I do not really think a ring would be made for is increasing ambient light. Such a ring would likey be considered of little use to the elves. Remember that all of these rings are being made by Noldorians, and the Noldorians already have the Feanorian Lamps, and (from the description) those seem like almost mass produced everyday articles. I'm not all that sure the Noldor would even use candles when they had those (after all, the lamps never go out) Plus, elves have very good night vision (to see in the days before the sunlight, they'd have to) so even the light of one candle is probably enough for thier needs. |
05-30-2012, 03:49 PM | #13 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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In Saruman's very footsteps
Oringinally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc:
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Oringinally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc: Quote:
elempi: Quote:
Originally posted by Boromir88: Quote:
I suspect even the lesser rings had gems of some kind. But no two gems are alike. Diamonds have flaws and inclusions, and anyone shopping for an engagement ring learns about the four 'c's' (cut, caret, clarity and color.) Might they have had cheaper stones, or the wrong kind for their specific purpose (If, as seems to be some concensus, they each had a specific purpose?) Originally posted by Alfirin: Quote:
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05-30-2012, 05:12 PM | #14 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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I don't think that any lesser rings would have possessed any great power as we know that it wasn't until Sauron in the guise of Annatar came along, that Celebrimbor managed to create the Three rings. And if you consider that the greater Rings all seemed to possess qualities specific to the three main races of Middle-earth, then these lesser/early rings may also have only been designed to work for the Elves who crafted them.
Saruman probably did have one of them at least, he certainly knows enough Ring Lore: Quote:
Quote:
Saruman knows that he still needs the One ring though, if he is to achieve his 'third way'. I always wonder if he knows that he could wield it in defiance of Sauron or if he has been deceived by Sauron. Galadriel thinks she could wield it too, and thankfully is self aware enough to reject it, knowing that this would make her own power a terrible thing (and she knows she is already being somewhat defiant by wielding the power she already does possess). I think Saruman by this time has reached the very limit of his own considerable skill, and with this, he would have gone way beyond simply using a cast-off Elven ring. Where those 'essays' went is interesting. Maybe Sauron also gained some control over them? A ring is a symbol both of eternity and of capture. The Nine very much capture those Men who wear them and while their bodies wither, their spirits endure, held together or trapped within the rings they wear. A little like Sauron with the One. Maybe Gandalf warns against them as he is worried by this prospect? I know I would be. He says "to my mind" which suggests this is his personal worry. I don't think I would be tempted to risk wearing one - the existence of Anglo-Saxon rings of power in the real world such as the Bramham Moor Ring, inscribed with spells, is enough to give me a shiver.
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05-30-2012, 05:14 PM | #15 | ||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I think you are misinterpreting the word "proper", or at least I never understood it that way. Granted, English is not my native language, but I have always thought that "proper" here means simply "characteristic", i.e. the stone that belongs to it, you can identify it that way. Let's say, Vilya has a sapphire in it. That is its "proper" gem - in latin, "proprius" means something like "characteristic" or "distinctive". Even the English word "propriety" does not denote something "correct", but simply something that belongs to someone. So it was a stone that belonged to that Ring, that is what I believe Gandalf meant, nothing more, nothing less. Quote:
And just for the record, I do not think Radagast needed any Ring for his communication with the animals (nor for his "fall from duty". He loved animals even without any Ring). On top of everything, I find Radagast such a "natural" person that I would really find it awkward for him to mess around with any Rings... Quote:
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Which is basically what I meant by this Control-Enhancement difference, as radagastly pointed out: Quote:
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05-30-2012, 06:07 PM | #16 |
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The question of the gems proper to the Great Rings makes me think about the exception to that rule, the One Ring, and that makes me think about a couple of things that are only tenuously related to the discussion of the Lesser Rings--nonetheless, it is fun to speculate.
What crops up in my mind is this: in HoME X, aptly titled Morgoth's Ring, there is an essay where Tolkien compares Melkor's diffusion of his own power into the whole matter of Arda to Sauron's infusion of his power into the Ring, and Tolkien says that Sauron specifically used gold in the creation of the One Ring because it had, as an element or ore, particularly high amounts of Melkor-ness. Silver, on the other hand, is singled out as being one of the purest metals (I would speculate that, in a like manner, water could be assumed to be one of the purest elements of Arda's physical matter, and maybe the air of Manwë). In addition to this is the idea that has been brought up here that the gemstones of the Great Rings might be significant. The Sapphire connection to Manwë in Vilya seems especially apt, and I wonder if it's not too much of a stretch to hope for a diamond-Elbereth connection for Nenya (after all, Galadriel is very much a Varda-figure in The Lord of the Rings). This leaves Narya, and while I can make no obvious connection between it and one of the Valar, its red stone nonetheless makes a fairly close connection to Gandalf's use of it as "kindling" (i.e. lighting a fire--fires being red). The connection here that I would put forward--as a theory and as nothing but a theory--is that the gemstones in the Great Rings have something of an analogy to the use of gold in the One Ring. What precisely they *DO* is beyond me to explain, or how they do it, but the "magicks" of the Elves are, as has already been pointed out in this thread, an Art--and I would lean on that word a bit to suggest that an Art suggests that it is a Craft (albeit one that can be done well according to the gift of the craftsman), which is something that can be made with materials--and although there is a lot of emphasis on the craftsmanship of Celebrimbor, nothing is said in the text about the significance of his materials. What I am propounding, therefore, is a suggestion that what sets apart the Lesser Rings from the Great Rings is, in part, their different materials--or that in the Great Rings the natural potencies of the gems were unlocked by a combination of the Ring-Control/Enhancement (as it has been suggested here) already found in the Lesser Rings, not simply working on the user, but allowing him/her to access further power of Arda itself, as most appropriate to the gem. The thing about this speculative schema that appeals to me is that it makes a connection between the One Ring and the other Great Rings that allows the lesser Rings to have been a purely Elven Art--indeed, it is easy to see Ring-making as an Eregion reinvention of something the Noldor did in Valinor. The idea that the gems have "innate powers" or what-have-you sits a bit uncomfortably with me, seeming not quite-Middle-earth, but I console myself with the Noldor were always gem-makers, and although the Silmarils are the gems par excellence that they made, it is not impossible that the lesser gems might have had a lesser power just as they had a lesser lustre. In this conception, the Lesser Rings may well have had gems--it is simply that the gems would not have been of any extra benefit compared to an unadorned Lesser Ring. It is the gems specifically then, in the Great Rings, that allowed the ringbearer great power over nature--but because they were opened up to tap into this "matter of Arda" power, Sauron's One Ring, forged of gold specifically to tap into the Melkor-element in the matter of Arda, was able to get in and control the other ringbearers. Having said all that, I realise it's all unprovable, but hopefully it will be seen as somewhat plausible--or, at the very least, as highlighting an element or two of the Rings that can bear a touch more scrutiny.
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