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01-15-2012, 06:32 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 72
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Radagast, Alatar and Pallando
Is it possible that these three did not utterly fail in their mission, and that perhaps the Istari had a mission secondary to defeating Sauron? For example, Gandalf's secondary mission (which would aid in part the first) would be to act as a guiding force to Men and a friend to the Elves--a great advisor and counselor of the world, imparting the wisdom of Eru, while using his strength in a limited fashion to enable the defeat of Sauron. Saruman too might have had a secondary purpose in Middle Earth which tied in with the first, but he betrayed both.
Is it possible that Radagast's secondary purpose was to tender to the birds and beasts of the world, and ensure their protection from the destruction which Sauron would try to wrought upon the world, especially in the event that the others failed and Sauron had 'won'? Yavanna forced him to go along with Saruman; perhaps that he keep an eye on Saruman or to temper Saruman's innate nature, or perhaps because she wanted Radagast to represent her own nature in Middle Earth. And perhaps Alatar and Pallando became the forefathers of all of history's ancient wizards--Keeping the memory of a divine or supernatural spirit alive--And that was their intended secondary purpose, perhaps? I do not believe any of the Five except Saruman failed objectively--they were all sent for one reason, yes, but that does not preclude being sent also for other reasons. If the Istari were sent only to act against Sauron, I would think they would've been sent during the First War, or a time closer to his revival. What I'm trying to say is that besides being the Valar's representatives against Sauron, perhaps they were the Valar's/Eru's representatives in Middle Earth, period--and in their own ways succeeded in being such, being chosen for different reasons. We are not told that any but Saruman fell to evil, neither did any of them attempt to become another Sauron...So I do not think they utterly failed. |
01-16-2012, 05:25 AM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Maybe, maybe not. My personal impression (mostly gathered from the Istari essay and the hearing before the Valar when they were being chosen) is that the five of them were chosen in order to approach the mission from different perspectives, yes, in this way to represent the particular Valar - but only in relation to the mission. In other words, for example, if there was only one Wizard sent - for example Saruman - even in his best, he could have helped greatly the Men or Elves or Dwarves in the struggle against Sauron, help to deepen their knowledge, help them to counter the Enemy's inventions, but he would just as well probably neglected the wild animals and nature and such. So if let's say Saruman succeeded, did not fall, but helped the Free Peoples to defeat Sauron, he would have accomplished that, but half of the forests in Middle-Earth would have been gone since he would have used the wood as simple material to build strongholds or weapons to fight Sauron, or even beautiful monuments to the West and let's say he might have left an "unhealthy impression" in the minds of the Free Peoples, so that even after his fall, they would continue in building new beautiful things and expanding, but on the expense of everything living by itself. That's why Radagast was there, so that these things are not forgotten. Also, when we are already talking about Saruman, he could have easily forgotten the meek and those not especially strong or especially wise, he could have favourized some against the others, and that's again why Gandalf was supposed to come along. And so on. In the same way, Radagast alone would have neglected the "civilized people" on the expense of the nature. Gandalf could have neglected some of the really "high stuff" and would not possibly provide the information, power etc. necessary to discover all the Ring-lore in time and even to drive Sauron e.g. from Dol Guldur in the first place.
So this is how I see the necessity of having the five of them. They had a certain purpose - helping, supporting the inhabitants (including the beasts and nature itself) of Middle-Earth to fight against Sauron. That is how it is specifically said. Of course that leads indirectly to many different activities. But that was not "the mission". The fact that Gandalf cheered up many hobbits by randomly performing some fireworks might certainly be even equally important to anything else he had done, but it was not intended. I would compare the activities of the Istari to the Great Music. "Play the Music, and adorn it by whatever special ideas you wish, according to the special individual gifts of each of you." - "Look, go to Middle-Earth and help them fight Sauron, and use all the tools in your disposal, according to the special individual gifts of each of you." The fact that Saruman might have accidentally helped people of Middle-Earth to invent the wheel (to use a silly example), which was subsequently used for many useful things, is a good, but unintended outcome. He was not supposed to go to Middle-Earth and start inventing wheels and steam engines and computers, he could have spent years with that even if it was his only purpose. But if his intention to help the people led him to do this - "yeah, we'd protect Minas Tirith much better if we use this new project of mine to rebuild the walls in 45° angle" - then why not. As for the last paragraph you mentioned, I think we cannot say much about Alatar and Pallando. Tolkien himself implied that he fears they failed, in a similar way to Saruman. But we don't have really sufficient information to say one or the other.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-16-2012, 06:45 AM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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I have absolutely zero textual basis for this, but I've alwayls liked to think that, amongst the things that Gandalf did in his "last journey" (between when he parted from the Hobbits in Bree and showed up at the Grey Havens) was to have a meeting with Radagast again and to basically hand over to him what little authority over Middle earth would be left in the Fourth age to come (Even with the Elves leaving en masse and the upcoming age to be one dominated by the race that was not at all bound to the music, I tend to think the Valar (at least, the kindlier Valar) would not wholly abandon Middle earth from thier eye. Five wizards were sent to directly encourage and exort the peoples of ME to restist Sauron's influence. It does not seem unreasonable to assume that one small one might be left to simply keep an eye on things) The fact that Radagast is permitted to stay is in my mind a sort of base for this. True, in straying from the path set him, Radagast had lost the right to return to the west in ease and triumph, as Gandalf had, but if he had truly screwed up to the point that he was considered a danger to ME in and of himself, or the Valar were wholly abandoning ME to it's own devices, you'd think Gandalf whould have forced him to leave, (It is my opinion that, when Gandalf cast Saruman out of the order, he ipso facto took over leadership of it, so he might have had the authority to force Radagast to leave ME if he so chose.) Plus Yavanna's dear Entish children were still in ME, and she might very well feel better knowing her chosen champion was still around to protect them from now rather unbound men with thier sharp axes and wood hunger.
As for the Two Blue Wizards that's a little more ambiguos. Tolkein certinly says he fears they failed, but in Tolkien's mind, so had Radagast (i.e. "failure" and "turned evil" do not neccecarily equate) Perhaps, had The Return of the Shadow been completed (and they actually had turned evil), we would have heard of them again, perhaps when The Mouth of Sauron rode out, there would also have rode out again a great army from the East (or was it the South?) "led by two who were robed in blue" (Actually that could be another reason Radagast was left, if the Two Blue wizards had turned evil but were still alive, there was always the possiblity that they might come back and try and do again what Saruman had tried to do (i.e. conqer and rule), so ME needed a wizard who was still on the side of "good", and who better to stand against the two sent by Orome the Huntsman (since the wizards seem to share some common characteristics with the Valar who sent them) than he who loved above all things the beasts and birds?) |
01-16-2012, 11:13 AM | #4 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
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Also, I'm not sure Gandalf himself would personally have the "authority" to "hand over" his own authority. His authority as I see it came to its rightful conclusion when the Ring was destroyed. To return to a very old line from early years on the Downs, there's my two cents' worth.
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01-16-2012, 03:52 PM | #5 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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Mark me, I'm not saying you are wrong in any of your assumptions, just that, as it stands, Radagast is sort of a loose end as the third age comes to a close; not sucessful enough to reuturn home, not bad enough to die (that's another point, since the wizards have elf type immortality (slayable, but not subject to natural death or ageing) Unless someone actually kills Radagast (unlikey, given how reclusive he is and the fact that most people who do know him like him) he has a fatal accident, or the Valar rescind his immortality, he's basically in ME forever (or, at least, until Daor Dagorath) |
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01-16-2012, 06:13 PM | #6 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Alfirin, I understand your line of thought, however, at least in my opinion, the in-Middle-Earth logic implies that Radagast was simply "forgotten", so to say. I would phrase it this way - he forgot about his mission and went to "play with animals", so also they forgot to inform him about his boat ticket back to Valinor, as well as about his appointment in the first place. It was not anything "evil" from Valar's part (or Gandalf's, for that matter): he did not even want the boat ticket back, obviously. It was simply like "yes, you decided not to do your duties and instead spend your days with your hobbies, we are not going to punish you for that, but we are also not going to reward you for it either; and after all, you seem happy where you are, so we simply won't interfere, you can stay in Mirkwood and be happy, we are not any enforcers." I think that's very nice and, when you look at the behavior of Eru/Valar in other situations, very typical.
Gandalf could not "give over" any authority of his. His task had been fulfilled. Radagast's task (which was the same as Gandalf's, and that of all other Wizards) had not been fulfilled. He did not do what he was supposed to do. That said, if e.g. some Dark Lord had risen in the future, nothing would prevent Radagast to stand up and fulfil his task then, if he decided that he wanted to step into the arena back again. That is, I think, also the basis for the best (and "canonically approvable") Fourth-Age-fictions. But he seemed generally not to be interested. Let me use a parable - I think the Istari can be compared to a group of five elected politicians who are supposed to fulfil certain roles in the government. Some of them go to usurp the power for themselves, only one stays in office until the end of his term and does everything he was supposed to do. After his duty is finished, he gets some reward for that. Radagast basically quits his post and instead goes to retire in his cottage in the countryside. There are no obligations for him, he simply chose not to fulfil them. He chose not to do anything. I cannot imagine Gandalf going to visit Radagast and "giving him over" the responsibility for Middle-Earth for several reasons. First, like I said, Gandalf had nothing left to give. Second, Radagast obviously did not want to be given any more responsibility. He did what he wanted, he did not want any obligations (maybe he did not consciously formulate it that way, but that is what he basically did). And Gandalf - especially the post-destruction-of-the-Ring Gandalf - would not "force" anything upon anybody. After the destruction of the Ring, Gandalf was just happy - at last, after thousands of years. And he also left the responsibility of Middle-Earth denizens (Hobbits with the Scouring and rebuilding the Shire is the best example) upon themselves. He would not go to Radagast and start reminding him of duties the Brown Wizard had forsaken. He would - like the Valar - just leave him do what he will.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-18-2012, 12:54 AM | #7 | |||||||
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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This is a pretty popular topic; searching the site should give you several threads on the other wizards. I also wrote a FAQ on it sometime ago. The topic of these other wizards has always been interesting to me, but I've been disappointed at the outcome and lack of detail given. They were clearly low priority for Tolkien as they had only limited (Radagast) or no (Alatar/Pallando) involvement in his main narrative. Given enough time, he may have eventually decided what happened with the blue guys.
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Failure - particularly in Radagast's concern - does not necessarily mean turning to evil. As you say, it seems Radagast may have been sent by Yavanna with an ulterior motive, but he certainly failed in regards to the Istari mission which was to guide Middle-earth's inhabitants to deal with Sauron. I do not think Yavanna sent Radagast with Saruman for any other reasons; if he was sent to supervise Saruman, they obviously picked the wrong sort of fellow as from the start, Saruman resents his presence and seems to regard him as lower in intelligence or power. ("Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom" [than are Saruman and Gandalf].) Unwittingly Radagast still played a positive part in the story. Upon warning Gandalf of the threat of Nazgul, he sent Gwaihir who ended up saving Gandalf from Orthanc (and of course, showing up again later). Perhaps Yavanna suspected that the animals of Middle-earth (particularly eagles) would continue to have important moments as they did earlier in history. ________ Like the Radagast/Yavanna/nature connection, Christopher Tolkien observes a similar connection (if not completely ulterior motives) in Alatar and Pallando being Maiar of Oromë: Quote:
While you suggest that they established certain spiritual or magical practices, those are not heralded as positive things as Tolkien speculates on their actions. It's important to remember that 'Alatar' and 'Pallando' are never even mentioned by name in anything Tolkien published nor are they in The Silmarillion, so these names are not fully canon. They are only known to have existed by Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Cirdan, and probably Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn. As readers, we were only alerted to the existence of the fourth and fifth wizards by Saruman's reference to "the rods of the Five Wizards" in his confrontation with Gandalf. I suspect the names 'Alatar and Pallando' are the most widely known because they were first to be revealed (1980, Unfinished Tales), and stuck because they are more pronounceable than Morinehtar and Romestamo (1996, History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth). These other two wizards are only described in any fashion on four occasions - a letter, two notes in Unfinished Tales, and one passage in HoME XII. 1) without name or color in a 1958 letter (#211) response to a curious reader. The reader asked what color the other two wizards were, and Tolkien replied he did not know - he actually did have ideas but because he was undecided and nothing had been published on them yet, he didn't commit to anything. Quote:
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01-18-2012, 01:45 PM | #8 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 72
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In any case, it seems like (in the general idea from those several writings) Tolkien had a general but unrefined idea that the "Blue Wizards" as we commonly call them had a different purpose than Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. That their mission was in the east, and since The Lord of the Rings focuses on events in the West, we do not hear of them, yet since Saruman mentions them in that story albeit briefly and indirectly, we can assume they were active in some way. Their mission was just slightly different. It seems to me that Tolkien went back and forth on whether they failed or not and wasn't entirely sure. As to Radagast, what you've seen shown me does make it rather clear that he failed to have an active role (ala Gandalf and Saruman) in the War of the Ring. Gandalf was the only one who had an active role AND stayed on the side of light, against Sauron; Saruman was important, but fell to his own evil. It seems Radagast was a good spirit but he did not have as active a role in fighting Sauron. But that he helped Gandalf, even indirectly, does at least "redeem" him in my eyes. He was simply of a weaker will than Gandalf. Really, Saruman and Radagast can sort of embody two extremes--One who falls in love with his own power and has little time for the needs/cares of the world (remember Treebeard describing Saruman as being "hasty", not very interested in the life of the world, even before he fell to evil); and one who cares too little and falls too much in love with the world he is sent to. Gandalf is the more moderate of the two, perhaps owing to his more humble and wise spirit. I would think Radagast probably was also sent with some ulterior motive on Yavanna's part, like I said, perhaps to protect the things she loved like birds and animals if the others failed and Middle Earth was overrun. As you note above, Saruman did not want his presence; She forced it on the other 4. So she indeed had a reason in picking him. He was simply a good wizard, who fell too in love with the beasts and birds of Middle Earth to be of any real use in overthrowing Sauron, although even he had a little part to play, and even his minor action greatly helped the mission by warning Gandalf of the Nazgul and sending Gwaihir. That in my eyes 'redeems' him as I said. Now, while he was of no use in overthrowing Sauron, perhaps he came to be useful in some later conflict, in the Fourth Age or beyond, of which we were never told about. Which is along the same lines as the Blue Wizards: They seem to have had other purposes, but they are of no importance to the main narrative of the LOTR, hence, we hear little of them. And Gandalf does not mention them in any ill way--Perhaps suggesting they were fulfilling their goals in the East, but since the East doesn't concern us in the LOTR, we do not hear of them actively. But again, it doesn't seem like JRRT ever came to a final conclusion about them outside of them being in the East; Whether they died there, or pursued a different mission against Melkor and Sauron's followers there, or later themselves fell to evil is not known. But it does appear that they did SOMETHING over there. That their purpose carried them there. Perhaps they were to the East what Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast were meant to be to the West. After all, certainly Sauron was not the only force of evil in the entirety of Middle Earth. He was a grave power, and a most immediate and looming threat, but perhaps in the East there were other (lesser) evils at work. Last edited by TheLostPilgrim; 01-18-2012 at 01:49 PM. |
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