"The Dark Fire Will Not Avail You"

[Nikkolas]

So there was something I had to wonder after finishing The Silmarillion.

Men served Morgoth and after he was gone, they served Sauron. This is both understandable and even logical. Living in the First Age with a dark god just up north who sends out his forces at leisure to massacre and enslave all opponents must have been immensely frightening. To Men of those days, I doubt they considered or even knew of any alternative. They just wanted to save themselves or their families.

But what about the Maia?

We have Balrogs. We have Sauron. We have Saruman. They are not as limited as Man. They know infinitely more about the workings of the universe. They know there is a God with a capital G. They know there is a contingent of gods just to the West who also happen to command the mightiest army in existence.

They must know that, no matter what they do, it's meaningless. They are destined to lose even before they begin. They can devote all the time in the world to building a military but one thought from Eru and their work is flushed away.

So why? Why do these intelligent, well-informed beings turn to evil when they know that evil canot possibly prevail?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

So why? Why do these intelligent, well-informed beings turn to evil when they know that evil canot possibly prevail?

I've been thinking about this for a long time, actually, and I think there is one possible solution - and very plausible, in my opinion.

I could say it rather simply: they thought that Eru had lost the interest in the world. Sort of, they had forgotten, you could say. Maybe (with people like Saruman) they could even come to thinking that if Eru did not stop this and that from happening immediately, then maybe he does not mind, or even approves? The possibilities are endless. Basically, however, I think it ultimately comes to forgetting who Eru is, or what is he like.

It is really simple if you think that the Ainur, after coming into the world and taking on material form, lost direct contact with Eru. When you are not in dialogue with someone, you can start imagining stuff about him and finding your own interpretation of his deeds/opinions/etc. (since you have no feedback, it is easy). Interpreting things you see... if Saruman or whoever was not in dialogue with Eru (or for the Istari, with Valar who gave them their mission) to "check back" with them, or to remind himself what they would really say to his situation and to what Saruman was doing, he can start finding his own excuses for what he was doing.

Hope it is understandable what I meant...

[Galadriel55]

I think Legate answered it all.

But possibly they also knew that Eru doesn't interfere with Ea on a regular basis. Although everything that happens ultimately boils down to him, he himself was very sparing in direct contact with Arda. The only two cases after the creation that I can think of are giving the Dwarves life and the incident with Pharazon and making the world round. The rest was the Valar's doing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It is really simple if you think that the Ainur, after coming into the world and taking on material form, lost direct contact with Eru. When you are not in dialogue with someone, you can start imagining stuff about him and finding your own interpretation of his deeds/opinions/etc. (since you have no feedback, it is easy). Interpreting things you see... if Saruman or whoever was not in dialogue with Eru (or for the Istari, with Valar who gave them their mission) to "check back" with them, or to remind himself what they would really say to his situation and to what Saruman was doing, he can start finding his own excuses for what he was doing.

Also, the longer the "estrangement" from the faithful Valar, and by proxy, the One, the easier self-delusion becomes.

That is why it would have been possible for Saruman, for example, to have repented after he saw his own plans of domination quashed. Therefore, Gandalf offered him the opportunity.

With the Balrog, much longer in evil servitude, you don't see Gandalf trying to talk it out of evil; he basically just told it where to go.

[blantyr]

With Enu and the Valar, the question would be how much one can get away with before they will act. The answer is quite a lot. I mean, sending an army to step foot in the blessed lands would be a no no, but short of that they’ll mostly leave you alone.

For Sauron in the late Third Age, he’d have to find his Ring or someone else would. If one thinks like a dark lord, there’s no option there. As is, the Valar intervention was relatively subtle up until the siege of Minas Tirith was broken. Aragorn called the shadow people forth. Was that the Ring? The Valar? If Sauron heard about that affair, would he know of the ancient prophecy, or would he be asking where the heck that came from? The next morning, the smoke from Mt. Doom was blown back in Sauron’s face. Was that Aragorn and the Ring? Was that the Valar? Did Sauron know, or was he as full of doubt and confusion as Gandalf seemed to think?

How does a Dark Lord think?

The other example was Saruman. His was a relatively trivial little darkness, one that wouldn’t gather the attention of the Valar, let alone Eru. It did draw the attention of Treebeard. Again, Saruman thought he knew Fanghorn, knew its strength, and knew it would not respond to provocation. Good guys are wimps. They’ll let you walk all over them. They never fight back, can't fight back. Well, hardly ever. Saruman thought to make war on Rohan, and thought Fanghorn negligible.

At a bottom line, basic theology, you have the old problem of the omnipotent, all knowing and benevolent God. How does such a being allow Evil to exist? Benevolence implies free choice, allowing sentients to do their own world building. This free choice cannot be taken away, yet such a God can’t just sit back and allow people like Melkor, Saruman and Sauron to take over reality. Such a God gives mortals choices, but makes just enough help available, should the heroes make the right choices, to doom a poor helpless dark lord should he over step certain boundaries.

No warning at all! Unfair! Doesn’t a dark lord deserve a few warnings? Omnipotent, all knowing, supposedly benevolent beings can be such a pain! Does anyone know just how embarrassing it is to be reduced to a shadow of malice that may never take shape and take over the world ever again?

Grumph!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by blantyr

The other example was Saruman. His was a relatively trivial little darkness, one that wouldn’t gather the attention of the Valar, let alone Eru. It did draw the attention of Treebeard. Again, Saruman thought he knew Fanghorn, knew its strength, and knew it would not respond to provocation. Good guys are wimps. They’ll let you walk all over them. They never fight back, can't fight back. Well, hardly ever. Saruman thought to make war on Rohan, and thought Fanghorn negligible.

Well, Saruman committed an egregious enough offense that upon the destruction of his incarnate form, his spirit was denied re-admittance to the Blessed realm. I'd say he didn't really escape the Valar's notice.

Originally Posted by blantyr

At a bottom line, basic theology, you have the old problem of the omnipotent, all knowing and benevolent God. How does such a being allow Evil to exist? Benevolence implies free choice, allowing sentients to do their own world building. This free choice cannot be taken away, yet such a God can’t just sit back and allow people like Melkor, Saruman and Sauron to take over reality. Such a God gives mortals choices, but makes just enough help available, should the heroes make the right choices, to doom a poor helpless dark lord should he over step certain boundaries.

As one of my favorite movies puts it, the idea is that in order for people to be really good, they have to be given a choice between good and evil, and choose good. The same applies to angels (Vala).

Originally Posted by blantyr

Doesn’t a dark lord deserve a few warnings? Omnipotent, all knowing, supposedly benevolent beings can be such a pain! Does anyone know just how embarrassing it is to be reduced to a shadow of malice that may never take shape and take over the world ever again?

I'd say all the major "dark lords", including the minor-league Saruman, had ample warning before their final doom (which they themselves brought about) was pronounced. And part of being good is overcoming pride, something none of those three ever seemed to grasp.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, Saruman committed an egregious enough offense that upon the destruction of his incarnate form, his spirit was denied re-admittance to the Blessed realm. I'd say he didn't really escape the Valar's notice.

Very true. One would say they had to be aware enough of what he was doing to pass judgment. Still, with the exception of Gandalf, I can't say that the Valar or Maiar took direct action against him. It was only after he pretty much chewed the dead rind of spite to the point of causing his own death that they let their judgement be known. Dark lords too make their own choices.

Yet, I've played role playing games based on Tolkien where one tracks 'corruption points.' The more bad stuff a character does, the more you have to follow that road to its end. Once one starts drifting towards evil, the game mechanics push one towards becoming more evil. Wormtongue and Saruman might be two of the clearer examples of this in the books. These were clearly two intelligent, strong willed and subtle beings who in the end seemed like 1930s movie serial villains with everything but the cloak to swirl and mustache to twirl.

I wouldn't say this is Valar denying choice but perhaps the corrupting influence of the darker powers.