Thranduil

[Thengise Greenleaf of Mirkwood]

Hmm, I was wondering how it is that Thranduil and Celeborn are related, if they even are? For together they called Mirkwood, Eryn Lasgalen or Wood of the Greenleaf's. Is Thranduil in any way related to Thingol and how was it that he became king of Mirkwood? I was just wondering about those questions and would greatly appreciate it if anyone can help.

[Thalionyulma]

Related? I don’t recall the two being related...

Thranduil was Sindar by origin. Celeborn was, depending on which version/book was from Doriath, or was a Teleri. Although the latter was married to Galadriel, who WAS related to Thingol since Eärwen was daughter of King Olwe, who I believe is his brother.

After the War of the Ring, the two teamed up to rid Mirkwood of the evil that Sauron had spread. Mirkwood was originally called Greenwood the Great (Eryn Galen), when Sauron “occupied” the south of Greenwood (w/c then was known as Dol Guldur or Hill of Sorcery)... a lot of his evil minions spread throughout the forest and it was called Mirkwood. The two elves joined forces to free Lorien and Thranduil’s realm of the remaining evils of the Dark Lord. Then it was renamed Eryn Lasgalen.

You may want to read more of these two elves in Unfinished Tales. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Thalionyulma ]

[Legolas]

In Lord of the Rings, Appendix B indicates Thranduil founded his kingdom in Mirkwood.

From Appendix B of Lord of the Rings:

In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these.

In later writings, presented in the Appendix B of 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' in Unfinished Tales, Oropher, Thranduil's father, is said to have established the elven kingdom and Thranduil came to rule after his father fell in the Last Alliance.

Oropher and Legolas are the only kin of Thranduil noted, so if he is related to Celeborn, we do not know how.

I have taken the time to arrange the Appendix B from Unfinished Tales in html for you to read, so please do by clicking here.

If that does not work, the URL is as follows: http://www.geocities.com/ulmo10/ut-cg-appendixb.html

[lindil]

going w/ the accepted Doriathrin origin of Celeborn I recall that in some obscure corner of UT [ and delightfully yhey are legion]we hear of Celeborn descended from one Elmo a minor[non-ruling] brother of Elwe[Thingol] and Olwe. Actually that may be from HoME. Oropher was stated in UT I believe to have been from Doriath and as the Appendix states brought Sindar to Greenwood [originally in the south].

So one can erasonably infer that Elmo [if he stayed in M-E] and Celeborn were minor royalty in Doriath. If Oropher came to rule the Sindar who removed from Lindon then he was almost certainly of royal blood in Doriath. So though we can not pin it down, I would guess Elmo is the key and that Celeborn and Orophir were cousins of some kind.

This is all from memory so I could be wrong on any # of points. I will go check on the Elmo/Celeborn thing.

[Legolas]

From Unfinished Tales:

The earlier story (apart from the question of the ban and the pardon), to which the statements in The Silmarillion, The Road Goes Ever On, and Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings refer, is fairly clear: Galadriel, coming to Middle-earth as one of the leaders of the second host of the Noldor, met Celeborn in Doriath, and was later wedded to him; he was the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo – a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he was the younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, and was "beloved of Elwë with whom he remained." (Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the father of Nimloth, who wedded Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë, but not so close as by that in which he became Olwë's grandson.)

In Doriath she met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol.

These are the only mentionings of Elmo in Unfinished Tales. Celeborn was, indeed, his grandson.

I'm not finding any reference to Oropher coming from Doriath. It can be speculated, I suppose, but nothing in Unfinished Tales confirms it. His name only appears in the Appendix B that I uploaded/added a link to and in footnote 14 for the Gladden Fields chapter:

14 - Long before the War of the Alliance, Oropher, King of the Silvan Elves east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron, had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc, across the river from their kin in Lórien. Three times he had moved northwards, and at the end of the Second Age he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir, and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf-Road (Men-i-Naugrim). He had joined the Alliance, but was slain in the assault upon the Gates of Mordor. Thranduil his son had returned with the remnant of the army of the Silvan Elves in the year before Isildur's march.

The Emyn Duir (Dark Mountains) were a group of high hills in the north-east of the Forest, so called because dense fir-woods grew upon their slopes; but they were not yet of evil name. In later days when the shadow of Sauron spread through Greenwood the Great, and changed its name from Eryn Galen to Taur-nu-Fuin (translated Mirkwood), the Emyn Duir became a haunt of many of his most evil creatures, and were called Emyn-nu-Fuin, the Mountains of Mirkwood. [Author's note.] – On Oropher see Appendix B to "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn;" in one of the passages there cited Oropher's retreat northwards within the Greenwood is ascribed to his desire to move out of range of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm and of Celeborn and Galadriel in Lórien.

[lindil]

I see now my confusion came from the quote of the appendix B of LotR in appendix B of HoGal&C'born.

Already quoted by Legolas above, that Thranduil was Sindar, meaning a Teleri of Beleriand, and since the Elves w/ Cirdan and the coast were usually called falathrim it is a very safe guess that he was indeed from Doriath, that and his distrust of dwarves. As for Royalty, Elves of all kinds that we see in the M-E seem to stick w/ their royal houses [ or import them ] as Oropher,Galadriel and Celeborn were.

So though we do not know the lineage, the chances of Thranduil not being descended from Doriathian nobility seem slim.