Orc Mutation - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Oroaranion · 12-23-2003, 02:33 PM

How did Elves "mutate" (not quite sure if that's the right word) into Orcs?

I presume that Sauron or Morgoth deceived them with some kind of dark wizardry. But please correct me and give me the right story.

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-23-2003, 02:38 PM

torture. pure torture. i think.

TheSquireof Aragorn · 12-23-2003, 02:40 PM

They were taken to dark places where they were torured, and physically, and mentally broken so they became evil, deformed, worthless creatures. The dark lord could not create life of his own, so he ruined others lives and twisted them, so that they bacame evil.
Hope that helps
For some reason I've made a mistake someone with more Tolkien knowledge than me, correct me

lathspell · 12-23-2003, 05:08 PM

In the beginning near Cuivienen where te Elves awoke, they dreaded something. When Oromë finds them they fear him in at first because something is hunting them down. The Sil never states if it is Melkor or 'things' that are under his dominion. That which they fear is simply referred as the Hunter, I believe.
So, after they were hunted and caught, the process of destruction began and I can do no more than join the answers given already.

greetings,
lathspell

Rumil · 12-23-2003, 06:59 PM

According to the FAQ on orcs on the Barrow Downs site (written by those far more learned than I), I've formed the impression that orcs were considered to have arisen by various different mechanisms depending on which of Tolkien's texts you read.

The easiest (morally perhaps) explanantion is that they were little more than bio-automatons, 'created' by Melkor, but containing no real life spirit, as big M could not truly accomplish this feat. The most generally accepted (due to being in the Silmarillion) explanation is, as you say, the torturing of elves. I believe JRRT also toyed with orcs being corruptions of men, but this seems to contradict his strong statements on the unique crime of Saruman, who later blended orcs and men. The other option appears to be the incarnation of lesser 'spirits', 'fay' or lesser maiar maybe, producing the early 'Boldogs' which, as far as we know, were much like orcs in appearence but far more powerful.

To give a personal view, I'd envisage a mix of the 'automaton', 'elf' and 'boldog' options with the 'man' option, being excluded for the reasons outlined above.

We know that Melkor controlled or created various nasties which terrorised the primeval elves at Cuivenen, if so, why could he not have created the the bio-automaton orcs at this time? However we know that in later ages (ie Shagrat and Gorbag) the orcs did have a certain amount of independence, even if it was just a dream of uncontrolled banditry where they didn't have to pass on their spoils to the boss.

Therefore I'd imagine something of a multistage process, with Morgoth creating the bio-automaton orcs, persuading some of his lesser 'sub-maiar' followers to become incarnate and kidnapping as many real genuine living people (the elves) as he could. Then would come a rather distasteful period of inter-breeding between these groups. Nasty [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] !!

The varied heritage of the orcs may have meant that there was, in later years, a marked variation in their ancestors, thus the weak snagas and the ordinary orcs. I've also wondered if what were described as 'goblins' were specially adapted to the mountain caverns in which they lived. Of course, Sauron would have taken advantage of this variation in order to artificially select the most fierce individuals to become the Uruk-Hai. I also wonder if the orcish leaders ie Bolg and Azog, had more of the Boldog strain in their blood, such that they could easily dominate their lowly subjects.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-23-2003, 08:02 PM

I do not think they can really be 'automatons', because they do seem to have some free will, weak as it is. If they were automatons, they would not really be able to retreat unless it was to Morgoth/Sauron's advantage, and I think that on several occasions they do.
Also, how could the orcs at the tower of Cirith Ungol be complaining about Sauron, if they had no free will?
Sorry if i misinterpreted you. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Rumil · 12-23-2003, 09:51 PM

Quite right TTCBtV,
thats why I'd propose an evil Morgoth-induced mixing of the automatons, the Boldog and the tortured elves to achieve an immortal, partiallly free-willed degenerate race of orcs.

12-23-2003, 02:33 PM	#1
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	Orc Mutation How did Elves "mutate" (not quite sure if that's the right word) into Orcs? I presume that Sauron or Morgoth deceived them with some kind of dark wizardry. But please correct me and give me the right story. __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-23-2003, 02:38 PM	#2
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	torture. pure torture. i think. __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide

12-23-2003, 02:40 PM	#3
TheSquireof Aragorn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 46	They were taken to dark places where they were torured, and physically, and mentally broken so they became evil, deformed, worthless creatures. The dark lord could not create life of his own, so he ruined others lives and twisted them, so that they bacame evil. Hope that helps For some reason I've made a mistake someone with more Tolkien knowledge than me, correct me __________________ "One more soldier dies, and when he gets to Heaven, to St.Peter he will tell, one more soldier reporting for duty, I've served my time in Hell."

12-23-2003, 05:08 PM	#4
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	In the beginning near Cuivienen where te Elves awoke, they dreaded something. When Oromë finds them they fear him in at first because something is hunting them down. The Sil never states if it is Melkor or 'things' that are under his dominion. That which they fear is simply referred as the Hunter, I believe. So, after they were hunted and caught, the process of destruction began and I can do no more than join the answers given already. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

12-23-2003, 06:59 PM	#5
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	According to the FAQ on orcs on the Barrow Downs site (written by those far more learned than I), I've formed the impression that orcs were considered to have arisen by various different mechanisms depending on which of Tolkien's texts you read. The easiest (morally perhaps) explanantion is that they were little more than bio-automatons, 'created' by Melkor, but containing no real life spirit, as big M could not truly accomplish this feat. The most generally accepted (due to being in the Silmarillion) explanation is, as you say, the torturing of elves. I believe JRRT also toyed with orcs being corruptions of men, but this seems to contradict his strong statements on the unique crime of Saruman, who later blended orcs and men. The other option appears to be the incarnation of lesser 'spirits', 'fay' or lesser maiar maybe, producing the early 'Boldogs' which, as far as we know, were much like orcs in appearence but far more powerful. To give a personal view, I'd envisage a mix of the 'automaton', 'elf' and 'boldog' options with the 'man' option, being excluded for the reasons outlined above. We know that Melkor controlled or created various nasties which terrorised the primeval elves at Cuivenen, if so, why could he not have created the the bio-automaton orcs at this time? However we know that in later ages (ie Shagrat and Gorbag) the orcs did have a certain amount of independence, even if it was just a dream of uncontrolled banditry where they didn't have to pass on their spoils to the boss. Therefore I'd imagine something of a multistage process, with Morgoth creating the bio-automaton orcs, persuading some of his lesser 'sub-maiar' followers to become incarnate and kidnapping as many real genuine living people (the elves) as he could. Then would come a rather distasteful period of inter-breeding between these groups. Nasty [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] !! The varied heritage of the orcs may have meant that there was, in later years, a marked variation in their ancestors, thus the weak snagas and the ordinary orcs. I've also wondered if what were described as 'goblins' were specially adapted to the mountain caverns in which they lived. Of course, Sauron would have taken advantage of this variation in order to artificially select the most fierce individuals to become the Uruk-Hai. I also wonder if the orcish leaders ie Bolg and Azog, had more of the Boldog strain in their blood, such that they could easily dominate their lowly subjects. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

12-23-2003, 08:02 PM	#6
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	I do not think they can really be 'automatons', because they do seem to have some free will, weak as it is. If they were automatons, they would not really be able to retreat unless it was to Morgoth/Sauron's advantage, and I think that on several occasions they do. Also, how could the orcs at the tower of Cirith Ungol be complaining about Sauron, if they had no free will? Sorry if i misinterpreted you. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-23-2003, 09:51 PM	#7
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Quite right TTCBtV, thats why I'd propose an evil Morgoth-induced mixing of the automatons, the Boldog and the tortured elves to achieve an immortal, partiallly free-willed degenerate race of orcs. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion