the mystery of mithril - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-20-2003, 04:51 PM

Mithril is characterized by many things, like the fact that it can be beaten and formed easily, but can stop a spear thrust from a troll from skewering Frodo. Also, it reflects moon and starlight (i think, or am I making that up?) and its really expensive. Considering that it was real, what metal is it? the closest I can think of is titanium.

Manelwen · 12-20-2003, 05:28 PM

I think that it is something like titanium. Although, titanium isn't as maleable as what I believe Mithril to be, maybe it is a bit like aluminum. It is light and flexible, but has the stength of titanium. Hum...now its got me thinking :P I don't like to think.

Bill the Pony · 12-20-2003, 05:35 PM

If I may, I'd like to point out that the spear-thrust was from "a huge orc-cheiftan, almost man-high"* rather than a troll.

Also, raw mithril itself wasn't armour by itself - it was the Dwarves who figured out how to make it into the famous armour metal - so armour-Mithril would seem to be an alloy of some sort. The elves made it into ithildin, which was on the door of Moria (that's the stuff that mirrors starlight and moonlight).

* p 317 of the Houghton-Mifflin ed. with movie pics on the covers.

Lost One · 12-21-2003, 11:54 AM

I always wondered if platinum wasn't an inspiration: the gleam of silver but untarnishable like gold. And rare. However, it would be no more use than gold in armour!

Gorwingel · 12-22-2003, 02:39 AM

At first I thought about platinum too, but then I realized that platinum is much heavier but stronger than gold. So probably mithril is a combination metal containing the best properties of all of these really precious white metals. Like the lightness and strength of titanium and the shine of platinum. It is completely imaginary though and I really think that there is nothing like it out there. Unless someone could find a way to single out these properties and combine them into some amazing super-metal.

Iargwath · 12-22-2003, 03:07 AM

Why don't we have a look at the actual properties of Titanium? Maybe we can conclude if this element is close to Tolkien's descriptions of Mithril?

Mithril:[*]Has a silvery lustre when polished[*]Does not tarnish[*]Strong and sturdy (as steel)[*]Lightweight[*]Could be bent into different forms (e.g chain mail)

Properties of Titanium (47.867 amu)
Pure titanium is a lustrous white metal with low density, high strength, and high corrosion resistance. It is resistant to dilute sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, moist chlorine gas, most organic acids, and chloride solutions. Titanium is only ductile when it is free of oxygen.
Titanium is as strong as steel, but it is 45% lighter. The metal is 60% heavier than aluminum, but it is twice as strong. Titanium metal is considered to be physiologically inert. Pure titanium dioxide is reasonably clear, with an extremely high index of refraction and an optical dispersion hgher than that of diamond.

Quote:

Pure titanium is a lustrous white metal...

Mithril:- Has a silvery lustre when polished

Quote:

with low density...

Mithril:- Could be bent into different forms (not too sure if low density enables flexibility in metals)

Quote:

...and high corrosion resistance.

Mithril:- Does not tarnsih

Quote:

high strength...Titanium is as strong as steel...The metal is 60% heavier than aluminum, but it is twice as strong...

Mithril:- Strong and sturdy (as steel)

Quote:

Titanium is as strong as steel, but it is 45% lighter...47.867 amu (very light)

Mithril:- Lightweight

I am thinking this metal is closest to Tolkein's descriptions of Mithril...other metals such as Silver and Platinum do not come as close...

Properties of Silver (107.8682 amu):
Pure silver has a brilliant white metallic luster. Silver is slightly harder than gold. It is very ductile and malleable, exceeded in these properties by gold and palladium. Pure silver has the highest electrical and thermal conductivity of all metals. Silver possesses the lowest contact resistance of all metals. Silver is stable in pure air and water, although it tarnishes upon exposure to ozone, hydrogen sulfide, or air containing sulfur.

Properties of Platinum (195.078 amu):
The metal is a beautiful silvery-white when pure, and malleable and ductile. The metal is corrosion-resistant. The catalytic properties of the six platinum family metals are outstanding (hydrogen and oxygen explode in the presence of platinum). Platinum's wear- and tarnish-resistance characteristics are well suited for making fine jewelry.
Other distinctive properties include resistance to chemical attack, excellent high-temperature characteristics, and stable electrical properties. All these properties have been exploited for industrial applications. Platinum does not oxidize in air at any temperature but can be corroded by cyanides, halogens, sulfur, and caustic alkalis.

Platinum comes close. However, it is not lightwieght (195.078 amu as opposed to Titanium's 47.867 amu) and strong? Platinum is more likely used for coating other metals, since it has performs well at high temperatures...

Any further thoughts?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:09 AM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iargwath ]

Gorwingel · 12-22-2003, 03:32 AM

Yes it would be good to look at the actual data of the metals. Just to add on to information that Iargwath has...
According to my Periodic Table...
Titanium: Density: 7.13 g/cm^3
Silver: Density: 10.50 g/cm^3
Platinum: Density: 21.45 g/cm^3

And just to compare it to something else
Gold: Density: 19.3 g/cm^3

Titanium does have the much, much, much lower density. It is even much lower than silver than I expected. And I do know that if you want something to be lightweight and strong you would use Titanium (they make bikes too out of Titanium). Platinum is much too heavy, and it is hard to bend, and is actually quite dull. I heard somewhere that most Platinum jewelery is actually plated with Rhodium to give it increased shine and brilliance.

The reason that we have probably never seen a Titanium chain mail is that would be extremely expensive (much like Mithril), so the strength of it in a mail like application has probably never been tested.

But I still think the price of platinum is much higher per ounce than Titanium, but I am not sure.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:36 AM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

Iargwath · 12-22-2003, 06:18 AM

Quote:

The reason that we have probably never seen a Titanium chain mail is that would be extremely expensive (much like Mithril), so the strength of it in a mail like application has probably never been tested.

I thought this was also the case Gorwingel [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] However, Titanium is now being sold as spool wire, in order to be transformed into chain mail. It is evident that Titanium is one of the most expensive chain mail that is available today (Anodized Titanium-grade 5 hard 0.020" 24Ga, being the most expensive).

Quote:

There are two main options available to the apprentice armorer for making mail. The first is to buy rings that are already formed, the second is to form the rings from wire. A mail shirt requires 5000 to 9000 rings, depending on ring size and shirt size. Making rings from steel wire is the cheapest means of producing mail, but involves considerably more work than buying pre-formed rings. Spools of steel wire are available from hardware stores in either galvanized (zinc) or unplated varieties. 300 series stainless steel (wire or rings) is also a good choice. It is more expensive and may be hard to find, but is softer to work with and easier to maintain. Another metal option available to today's Armorer is titanium. Titanium is desirable for its high strength to weight ratio. Both stainless steel and titanium alloys are available from welding supply houses as spooled wire. Source

And i also found a website which distributes wire/spool. There you can see that Titanium is being sold, and is one of the most expensive wire/spool being sold...

Wire/Spool Page

drigel · 12-22-2003, 11:52 AM

I always thought mithril was the one element in ME unsullied by Morgoth. So, by that fact, it had some inherent quality that cannot be quantifyable... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-22-2003, 02:45 PM

umm... wow.. I am humbled by your brilliance... My teacher never made us learn the periodic table so I am kind of confused, but I get everything else.
Just out of a further need to bewilder myself beyond oblivion, what is the Ring made out of? (disclaimer: i can not offer any opinions or thoughts on this because i seriously do not know what im talking about...
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

Lost One · 12-22-2003, 06:17 PM

In defence of platinum's appearance - it isn't dull. I have access to 19th century Russian platinum coins, which have nver been treated with anything, and they are beautifully bright and shining.

Gorwingel · 12-22-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

In defence of platinum's appearance - it isn't dull

Well Lost One that is just what I had heard. I don't have access to platinum in my home because my mother is a gold fan. Thank you for correcting me and giving me the proper information though [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

29 dollars per pound!!!! That is expensive! (the other metals are only going for a few dollers a pound). Iargwath that does surprise me that they are selling supplies to make mail out of Titanium. It would make an amazing mail shirt, and it would be light. I wonder if there is anyone out on the internet who has made one or has had one made?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:51 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

doug*platypus · 12-22-2003, 08:05 PM

Interesting to hear about the platinum coins. I've never been a fan of platinum rings, though. I do think they look plain compared to silver or gold.

I'd rather have a mail shirt of mithril than titanium or platinum. Dunno. Maybe Middle-Earth is just more fun than science. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-22-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Maybe Middle-Earth is just more fun than science.

Yeah, I'm beginning to come to that conclusion too...
But in a purely hypothetical sense.

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-22-2003, 09:32 PM

Oh yeah, by the way, I want titanium chain mail too! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Except for it would be really expensive, wouldnt it... Well, maybe I could just get a chain mail tank top...

Finwe · 12-22-2003, 09:54 PM

Perhaps an alloy of Titanium and Platinum would give the finished product both the look and feel that it should have.

Iargwath · 12-23-2003, 01:48 AM

Quote:

It would make an amazing mail shirt, and it would be light. I wonder if there is anyone out on the internet who has made one or has had one made?

I am thinking of contacting the webmaster, who sells the spool wire to make the mail shirts...I am sure he/she has knowledge about Titanium mail shirts [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

12-20-2003, 04:51 PM	#1
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	the mystery of mithril Mithril is characterized by many things, like the fact that it can be beaten and formed easily, but can stop a spear thrust from a troll from skewering Frodo. Also, it reflects moon and starlight (i think, or am I making that up?) and its really expensive. Considering that it was real, what metal is it? the closest I can think of is titanium. __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide

12-20-2003, 05:28 PM	#2
Manelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Alqualondë Posts: 78	I think that it is something like titanium. Although, titanium isn't as maleable as what I believe Mithril to be, maybe it is a bit like aluminum. It is light and flexible, but has the stength of titanium. Hum...now its got me thinking :P I don't like to think. __________________ Victory favors neither the righteous nor the wicked. It favors the prepared.

12-22-2003, 02:39 AM	#5
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	At first I thought about platinum too, but then I realized that platinum is much heavier but stronger than gold. So probably mithril is a combination metal containing the best properties of all of these really precious white metals. Like the lightness and strength of titanium and the shine of platinum. It is completely imaginary though and I really think that there is nothing like it out there. Unless someone could find a way to single out these properties and combine them into some amazing super-metal. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

12-22-2003, 03:32 AM	#7
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Yes it would be good to look at the actual data of the metals. Just to add on to information that Iargwath has... According to my Periodic Table... Titanium: Density: 7.13 g/cm^3 Silver: Density: 10.50 g/cm^3 Platinum: Density: 21.45 g/cm^3 And just to compare it to something else Gold: Density: 19.3 g/cm^3 Titanium does have the much, much, much lower density. It is even much lower than silver than I expected. And I do know that if you want something to be lightweight and strong you would use Titanium (they make bikes too out of Titanium). Platinum is much too heavy, and it is hard to bend, and is actually quite dull. I heard somewhere that most Platinum jewelery is actually plated with Rhodium to give it increased shine and brilliance. The reason that we have probably never seen a Titanium chain mail is that would be extremely expensive (much like Mithril), so the strength of it in a mail like application has probably never been tested. But I still think the price of platinum is much higher per ounce than Titanium, but I am not sure. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:36 AM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ] __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

12-22-2003, 02:45 PM	#10
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	umm... wow.. I am humbled by your brilliance... My teacher never made us learn the periodic table so I am kind of confused, but I get everything else. Just out of a further need to bewilder myself beyond oblivion, what is the Ring made out of? (disclaimer: i can not offer any opinions or thoughts on this because i seriously do not know what im talking about... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide

12-20-2003, 05:35 PM	#3
Bill the Pony Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 19	If I may, I'd like to point out that the spear-thrust was from "a huge orc-cheiftan, almost man-high"* rather than a troll. Also, raw mithril itself wasn't armour by itself - it was the Dwarves who figured out how to make it into the famous armour metal - so armour-Mithril would seem to be an alloy of some sort. The elves made it into ithildin, which was on the door of Moria (that's the stuff that mirrors starlight and moonlight). * p 317 of the Houghton-Mifflin ed. with movie pics on the covers.

12-21-2003, 11:54 AM	#4
Lost One Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 67	I always wondered if platinum wasn't an inspiration: the gleam of silver but untarnishable like gold. And rare. However, it would be no more use than gold in armour!

12-22-2003, 11:52 AM	#9
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	I always thought mithril was the one element in ME unsullied by Morgoth. So, by that fact, it had some inherent quality that cannot be quantifyable... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

12-22-2003, 06:17 PM	#11
Lost One Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 67	In defence of platinum's appearance - it isn't dull. I have access to 19th century Russian platinum coins, which have nver been treated with anything, and they are beautifully bright and shining.

12-22-2003, 08:05 PM	#13
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Interesting to hear about the platinum coins. I've never been a fan of platinum rings, though. I do think they look plain compared to silver or gold. I'd rather have a mail shirt of mithril than titanium or platinum. Dunno. Maybe Middle-Earth is just more fun than science. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-22-2003, 09:32 PM	#15
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	Oh yeah, by the way, I want titanium chain mail too! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Except for it would be really expensive, wouldnt it... Well, maybe I could just get a chain mail tank top... __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide

12-22-2003, 09:54 PM	#16
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Perhaps an alloy of Titanium and Platinum would give the finished product both the look and feel that it should have. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.