The Third Theme

[littlemanpoet]

I think it safe to understand that the First Theme of the Ainulindalé was that of the Eldar, the Second that of the Edain. What did the Third Theme evoke?

[Galadriel55]

Hm. I always thought that the first theme was neither Eldar nor Edain - just a theme. Maybe of Ainur. Eru brought in both Children.

At least, that's what I thought before I actually had the question written in front of me.

Now I begin to think that the third theme could be the future of Elves and Men, and possibly the beginning of the Second Song.

It's a posibility that the Ainr would sing "both" songs in one if Melkor didn't cause troubles. But the song ended - and quite abruptly - and everything had to be resolved before it could continue, or before you could bring in more themes...

[Nogrod]

I have always loved the Ainulindalë, but I have never thought of this question quite that close... So I was immediately lured into thinking.

I do not see it as that tightly tied to the "races" or "kinds of beings" in the hierarchy of being. But I'd also hate to read it straightforwardly through Christian theology (aka. creation, fall from paradise, apocalypsis).

I think it's quite easy to see the first theme meaning a first creation, the Ainur joining His mind and starting to create by giving their individual tones into it. But when Melkor started adding his own things as to lead the theme into dissonance (to dis-accord), then Ilúvatar made a counter-move into the theme (part two) which might be "the introducing of death", or "creating of mortals", or what will you have there to counter Melkor's schemes (it says Melkor had the mastery in the end of the second theme and the Ainur went silent). Heh. Sounds like the Christian theology version I just dissed...

So in a way Ainur and Edain, but also creation and conflict in it which is resolved with a new creation.

Then the third theme could be the original division of things to good and bad / evil? You see there is no mention of these terms in the themes but only of discord and accord, dissonance and consonance, disharmony and harmony etc.

Also before the third theme the discord was internal or grew within and was tied with the original theme, but with the third theme there were clearly two separate musics which had "unities of their own". Then the evil melody started trumpeting forwards and drowned the good one - and thus Ilúvatar had to whistle it off (apocalypsis)... so mortals with free will and the evil gaining the upper hand - introduce Christ / apocalypse?

Blah. So I ended up with a Christian interpretation anyway...

Okay, I need to give this another thought. But on another time as I now need to go to sleep.

Thanks lmp for an interesting thread!

[littlemanpoet]

The reason I asked this at all was because I thought of a new possibility, that the Third Theme is about the union of Eldar and Edain in Beren & Luthien, and in Tuor and Idril. Obviously, Earendil, this issue of Tuor and Idril (going by memory here) brought about the mercy of the Valar. The line of Beren and Luthien brought about Dunedain, resulting finally in Aragorn/Elessar and the LotR re-enactment of the union in Elessar and Arwen. Just a guess, of course, but I'm wondering if it has traction?

[leapofberen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think it's quite easy to see the first theme meaning a first creation, the Ainur joining His mind and starting to create by giving their individual tones into it. But when Melkor started adding his own things as to lead the theme into dissonance (to dis-accord), then Ilúvatar made a counter-move into the theme (part two) which might be "the introducing of death", or "creating of mortals", or what will you have there to counter Melkor's schemes (it says Melkor had the mastery in the end of the second theme and the Ainur went silent). Heh. Sounds like the Christian theology version I just dissed...

So in a way Ainur and Edain, but also creation and conflict in it which is resolved with a new creation.

Totally. Tolkien was a Christian of course...I think his stories "re-tell" the Christian myth in a very beautiful way...and before I move on, I have to say this as well: In Morgoth's Ring, Finrod Felagund alludes to the Incarnation of Eru as the final redemption of Middle Earth and it's people (would quote it, but don't have the book handy to do so, I believe you can look it up online)...of course, this going along with Tolkien's view that the history of Middle Earth is actually a distant history of our own reality, points again to the Christian myth, that is, God reconciling with Man once and for all via the Incarnate Christ. In a fashion, we see the destruction of the Ring and the rise of good men via Elessar (Aragorn) from the Numenorians as the final defeat of Evil Incarnate (Morgoth, Sauron, Orcs, though we know Morgoth will one day break the Doors of Night, that besides.) But evil now moves from being definitive and "outward" (Morgoth, Sauron, Orcs) to more of an "inward" condition (sin, frailty, imperfection) requiring ultimate redemption and reconcilation as the Elves have all but faded and Elessar, the line of Numenor and the great men of the past are but a myth and have "faded" in their own right.

So the coming of the Christ would signify God (Eru in Tolkien's mythology) progressively making himself more and more "present" to Men in order to unite with them, whereas in the past we could say that the Valar and Eru seem to have successively withdrawn from Middle Earth, along with the Elves, even not revealing themselves directly through the events of the Third Age and on into the Fourth Age...though they still did intervene via the Istari and such. But you know what I mean...

So the Third Theme...did Tolkien speak much of a Third Theme or is it pretty much open to conjecture? I do know the Elves were not spoken of as being involved in the Second Music necessarily, but the Elves believed that Eru would not abandon them. If we were to continue in the thought that Middle Earth is a distant history of our own, then:
1) Possibly the Second Music could have been the coming of Eru as a Man (the Christ). This would have been the culmination, the crescendo of Eru's planned union with Men, or
2) It has not yet happened, and the progressive Christian "theme" in Tolkien's mythology and the recent few thousand years of our own world is leading up to the Second Music with the coming of the Christ still being a definitive point of demarcation in our history anyhow; meaning, it has brought us closer to the person of Eru himself as he has provided redemption from the "sin" or "inward" frailty that seemed to plague the Edain throughout Tokien's writings. But the "crescendo," the Second Music has yet to happen...

Whatever it is, we can deduce that there is something significant and special about Men in Tolkien's writings; though they appear to be the weaker of the two races (Elves being the other) and we would often rather associate ourselves with the Elves in their perfection, they embody something that even intimidated Morgoth upon their initial appearing in the far east of Middle Earth (see Silmarillion). What is it? If I remember right, one thing was he could not master them easily...

If we haven't even hit the Second Theme, I am not sure what the Third Theme is all about...clue me in if it is mentioned somewhere, because I cannot remember.

Ahh...here is a great link to the Eru/Christ connection right here in our own forums...http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=472

[Aiwendil]

Let's actually consult the sources before we get too carried away with speculation. The Ainulindale clearly states that the Children came with the third theme:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the Third Theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

This statement appears first in the Ainulindale C (the first post-LotR version) and was retained in D and in the published Silmarillion.

In the same text, the second theme is referred to here:

But Manwe was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Iluvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Iluvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor

The situation as envisioned in the Ainulindale, then, seems quite clear: the second theme represents the efforts of the Valar against Melkor, and the third theme represents both Elves and Men.

However, the situation is somewhat confused in other texts. In LQ2 (the Quenta Silmarillion text from the late 1950s, written several years after the Ainulindale), Men are associated with the second theme:

Originally Posted by LQ2

Little he [i.e. Melkor] knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Second Theme of Iluvatar

This is the only reference to the themes of the Music in LQ. More is said about the themes in the notes on the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth', however, which also dates from the late 1950s.

Originally Posted by Athrabeth

This freedom was shown in the Music by His introduction, after the arising of the discords of Melkor, of the two new themes, representing the coming of Elves and Men, which were not in His first communication.

Thus the 'newness' of the themes of the Children of Eru, Elves and Men, consisted in the association of fear with, or 'housing' them in, hroar belonging to Ea, in such a way that either were incomplete without the others.

. . . the Themes of the Children were introduced after the arising of the discords of Melkor.

Christopher Tolkien notes the apparent discrepancy between what is said in the Ainulindale and what is said in the Athrabeth and suggests two possible explanations: 1. The references to 'themes' in the Athrabeth are to related motifs that in the Ainulindale were grouped together as the 'Third Theme'; 2. (which he finds more likely) Tolkien had changed his mind about the themes, and now rather than both being associated with the Third Theme, Elves and Men were associated with the Second and Third themes respectively. This still leaves the statement in LQ2 as something of a puzzle, however, for even in this new conception, Men would still be associated with the Third Theme, not the Second. In any case, one thing does remain clear at all stages: the Children of Iluvatar were not present in the First Theme, the one that Iluvatar propounded at the beginning (and indeed it is an essential element of the philosophy expounded in the 'Athrabeth' that the Children were introduced specifically to rectify the discord of Melkor).