Why Does Good Suck So Much?

[Nikkolas]

Hello everyone. I just finished reading The Silmarillion for the first time and the thing that struck me as "the moral of the story" is that good guys are really, really dumb and selfish.

The Valar of course are "the goodest" and their bias towards Elves is plain from moment one. They actually go so far as to aid the half-elven Eärendil while letting the equally brave and selfless Amandil to die.
In fact, it seems they are so lazy and egotistical that they demanded someone come begging their assistance. Even as Morgoth threatened to subjugate and destroy all teh Children of Iluvatar, they didn't move until someone came crawling to them.

And what of their servants, the Maiar? No less selfish and unhelpful. In regards to Morgoth, let us not forget Queen Melian. Remember how she protected the Kingdom of Doriath and provided haven for those who wished to escape Melkor's evil?

Well, once her husband died, she said "screw you everyone" and left. With her magical protection gone, the entire kingdom and its helpless populace were left at the mercy of the Dark Lord.
Can you say worst queen ever?

Speaking of her husband, this really just enforces the idea of "good is stupid". With the threat of Morgoth dominating the lands, the Elves and Dwarves go to war among themselves. Even as the shadow of death lays on their doorstep, they insist on petty squabbles.

Getting back to the Maiar, we can't forget Sauron. Remember him? One of the strongest, most dangerous beings on Middle-earth? Second-in-command to Morgoth? What did the Host of the Valar do?
Why, they left him behind! And never once attempted to send someoen to recapture him.

It seems tha the idea that the Fall of Númenor is all Man's fault is a blatant misdirection. It is the Valar's continued failing that doomed them. They left Sauron on the world. They left The Enemy here to poison helpless Men, Elves and everything else.

So...yeah. I'm just rather embittered by the story's attempt to make the Valar seem noble and pure and good. They were anythg but. In fact they seem scarcely less flawed than Melkor or Feanor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Hello everyone. I just finished reading The Silmarillion for the first time and the thing that struck me as "the moral of the story" is that good guys are really, really dumb and selfish.

First of all, I must say that the title of this piece is rather over the top. I would say that it might be wise to lighten the tone (saying "suck" is a bit much) before someone does it for you.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The Valar of course are "the goodest" and their bias towards Elves is plain from moment one. They actually go so far as to aid the half-elven Eärendil while letting the equally brave and selfless Amandil to die.

I'm not altogether sure Amandil was left to die. I don't have the Sil nearby, but if you'd provide the quote it may prove helpful. From my recollection, I believe Amandil's fate was unknown.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

In fact, it seems they are so lazy and egotistical that they demanded someone come begging their assistance. Even as Morgoth threatened to subjugate and destroy all teh Children of Iluvatar, they didn't move until someone came crawling to them.

Never been a fan of the Valar's actions, but I can't assume they were "lazy". The Doom of Mandos played a large part in their inaction.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

And what of their servants, the Maiar? No less selfish and unhelpful. In regards to Morgoth, let us not forget Queen Melian. Remember how she protected the Kingdom of Doriath and provided haven for those who wished to escape Melkor's evil?

Well, once her husband died, she said "screw you everyone" and left. With her magical protection gone, the entire kingdom and its helpless populace were left at the mercy of the Dark Lord. Can you say worst queen ever?

Hmmm..."screw you everyone"? Again, laying it on a bit thick, aren't you? The only reason she shed her Maiaric persona and appeared in mortal raiment was because of her love for Thingol. Has it ever occurred to you that Melian was deep in mourning and perhaps incapable of retaining her protection around Doriath? The traumatic death of a husband or wife can be debilitating, perhaps even for a Maia.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Speaking of her husband, this really just enforces the idea of "good is stupid". With the threat of Morgoth dominating the lands, the Elves and Dwarves go to war among themselves. Even as the shadow of death lays on their doorstep, they insist on petty squabbles.

I have never perceived Thingol as being particularly "good" in the sense of having unassailable qualities. In fact, I don't believe Tolkien was interested in the Eldar being one-dimensional and above reproach. Thingol was greedy, petty and at times evil. A well-rounded character, not some cardboard cut-out.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Getting back to the Maiar, we can't forget Sauron. Remember him? One of the strongest, most dangerous beings on Middle-earth? Second-in-command to Morgoth? What did the Host of the Valar do? Why, they left him behind! And never once attempted to send someoen to recapture him.

If I remember, Sauron repented of his evil ways for a time and then felt that old black magic draw him back in. The Valar also forgave Morgoth before he destroyed the Two Trees and murdered Finwe. It seems to me that the Valar could not comprehend true evil -- it was beyond their comprehension. They never considered rebellion as did Morgoth, nor did they isolate themselves in near solitary confinement as Morgoth did, he who nursed grudges and plotted alone.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

It seems tha the idea that the Fall of Númenor is all Man's fault is a blatant misdirection. It is the Valar's continued failing that doomed them. They left Sauron on the world. They left The Enemy here to poison helpless Men, Elves and everything else.

The only thing I fault the Valar in is making the same mistake twice. Just as they convinced the Eldar to travel to Valinor (ostensibly for their own protection), so too did they hallow a place for the Edain, and separated Numenor from the rest of Arda. It was an error the first time, and they learned nothing from it. But again, as angelic beings, they perhaps did not comprehend mortal failings like greed, vanity, hatred and envy. This type of information was not revealed to them by Eru.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

So...yeah. I'm just rather embittered by the story's attempt to make the Valar seem noble and pure and good. They were anythg but. In fact they seem scarcely less flawed than Melkor or Feanor.

I think you've let your hyperbole run amok. The Valar were indeed not perfect, but they did have good intentions and never tried to actively harm the Children of Eru. But as you may have heard, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I'm not altogether sure Amandil was left to die. I don't have the Sil nearby, but if you'd provide the quote it may prove helpful. From my recollection, I believe Amandil's fate was unknown.

And the reason that his mission, as opposed to Eärendil's, was unsuccessful, was the simple fact that Eärendil had already gone to bat for the world in that way. A second time would not be the same, as Amandil himself well knew.

'For,' said [Amandil], 'it may well prove that you will never see me again; and that I shall show you no such sign as Eärendil showed long ago'.

Silm Akallabêth

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm..."screw you everyone"? Again, laying it on a bit thick, aren't you? The only reason she shed her Maiaric persona and appeared in mortal raiment was because of her love for Thingol. Has it ever occurred to you that Melian was deep in mourning and perhaps incapable of retaining her protection around Doriath? The traumatic death of a husband or wife can be debilitating, perhaps even for a Maia.

The Silmarilion itself seems to make that clear:

But now Thingol lay dead...and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time....

Silm Of the Ruin of Doriath

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I have never perceived Thingol as being particularly "good" in the sense of having unassailable qualities. In fact, I don't believe Tolkien was interested in the Eldar being one-dimensional and above reproach. He was greedy, petty and at times evil. A well-rounded character, not some cardboard cut-out.

Thingol already had some arrogance, as he showed to Beren. Possession of the Silmaril and the Nauglamír imparted him with a fatal greed.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Valar were indeed not perfect, but they did have good intentions and never tried to actively harm the Children of Eru. But as you may have heard, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

In the end, the Valar were created beings and were certainly capable of error. Also, their job was not to protect the Children of Ilúvatar at all costs, through all circumstances. The Valar were governors under the One, and all that they did, and more importantly, did not do, should be considered in that light.

[Galadriel55]

In Tolkien's works there is no "black and white". There is no perfect character, not even the Valar. There are hardly any completely evil characters. And even they did not begin evil.

There is some good and some bad in everyone. The fact that one is fighting against Morgoth doesn't make him an angel.


Personally, the first time I read The Sil I had a similar reaction, except that it was about Feanor's sons in particular. First Maedhros appeared a sensible enough guy, but then the second and third kinslayings and all that stuff...

And welcome to the Downs!

[Nikkolas]

The problem I take with the Valar is that the narrative does not make note of their flaws. It comments, quite often, on what the failings of Feanor and his sons were. But of the Valar? Constant hyperbole about their splendor and wonderfulness and blah blah blah.

I don't see it. i see a group of very powerful beings who are as flawed as any Elf or Man. In fact I find many of their acts, or thoughts, reprehensible. When Aulë made the Dwarves and was confronted by Eru, he was willing to kill them all. Oh sure he felt bad, but he was willing to commit genocide on his own utterly helpless creations.

What divinely good being would do such a thing?

And thanks for the welcome Galadriel.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

First of all, I must say that the title of this piece is rather over the top. I would say that it might be wise to lighten the tone (saying "suck" is a bit much) before someone does it for you.

Perhaps it was a bit much. My apologies.

Hmmm..."screw you everyone"? Again, laying it on a bit thick, aren't you? The only reason she shed her Maiaric persona and appeared in mortal raiment was because of her love for Thingol. Has it ever occurred to you that Melian was deep in mourning and perhaps incapable of retaining her protection around Doriath? The traumatic death of a husband or wife can be debilitating, perhaps even for a Maia.

Oh it certainly has occurred to me. Just as it occurred to me that Fingolfin was deep in mourning when he went to challenge Morgoth. He needlessly sacrificed his life.

This is a time of war. People are mourning everywhere. Melian is not the first monarch to lose someone she loves.

If she was a true queen and cared about her people, she would not have left them defenseless.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And the reason that his mission, as opposed to Eärendil's, was unsuccessful, was the simple fact that Eärendil had already gone to bat for the world in that way. A second time would not be the same, as Amandil himself well knew.

And why was it unsuccessful? Why did the Valar and Eru Himself slaughter helpless women and children?
This is not simply a case of "And Man Grew Proud." It's a case of "And Man...were Men and then were used by a being with powers and abilities far beyond their own. A being who is only at large because the gods were inept."

In The Silmarillion I admire most characters like Turin. It is made very clear that he is flawed and yet he is also heroic. There is no pretense of great pureness there.

Speaking of which, I need to get to The Children of Hurin. it goes into greater detail of his life and character, right?

[Galadriel55]

It never says that the Valar are perfect. They are more poweful than the Eruhini. They might be closer to, but definitely not ideal.

The narrative doesn't need to say "however, they sometimes made mistakes". We know that. They do not know the future and the consequences of their actions (since Eru's vision was very unclear), and can err the same way Elves, Men, and Drawves can. The might not be as flawed, but because they have more power, the consequences are bigger.

About Aule: Creating the dwarves in the first place wasn't a very good act. Aside from "mocking Eru", Aule was impatient, he didn't tell the other Valar about his idea, and he didn't even think it through thoroughly. Not very good qualities, are they? When he understood what he's done, he wanted to undo it. In the end, though, we see how any act ultimately turns to good, like Iluvatar predicted in the Ainulindale.

Fingolfin wasn't in mourning, he was in despair. 'Fey'. Also, he thought there is nothing left to live for, so he might as well challenge Morgoth than just be killed by orcs.

As for Amandil... things don't happen twice (hm. I recall this line somewhere in Narnia. Which of the Inklings copied it off the other? ). The world was saved, and history brought to a climax point, by Earendil's voyage. It couldn't happen that way again (if it did, I wonder if the Ainulindale would sound like a record that got stuck and was playing the same thig over and over again... ). The next time history came to a climax, something else had to happen. It just had to.

This is not simply a case of "And Man Grew Proud." It's a case of "And Man...were Men and then were used by a being with powers and abilities far beyond their own. A being who is only at large because the gods were inept."

I don't really understant what you're trying to say here. Can you elaborte a bit?

[Nikkolas]

I'm saying that the entire tale of the Numenorians is obviously supposed to give a message. It's a story of how Men grew mightier, prouder and in all ways superior to any other race of Men to ever live.

Then they grew greedy. They had longer life than any other mortal but they wanted immortality. But it is not simply desire that drove them. Fearing your own death is a natural instinct. If you have longer to think about it, have longer to wait until "The End", the fear will be even worse.

But no matter what their failings, the true Fall of he Numenorians only happened because Sauron was there. And why was Sauron there? Because the Valar allowed him to be. When the Valar stamped out the rest of Morgoth's forces they let slip his most abled and deadly servant.

It is through Sauron's deception and malice that Numenor was undone, not just the Numenorians' own egos.

The Valar are as much to blame as anyone else for allowing his evil to endure and spread across the land.

we see how any act ultimately turns to good, like Iluvatar predicted in the Ainulindale.

I always liked that passage.

'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilъvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

My interpretation of that dialogue is Eru created Melkor to be evil. Being evil was his purpose in creation. It's why I don't think Morgoth is truly evil in the modern sense that evil is a choice. He never really had one.