Why are Tolkien fans usually left-wing? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Might · 04-03-2011, 07:58 PM

Before I explain more about why I'm starting this thread, I want to make it very clear that it's not about discussing politics and who is right or who is better.
I respect all political positions as long as they do not belong to any of the extremes and I hope the same will be done within the thread.

Anyway, this Saturday I attended a meeting of the local section of the German Tolkien Society. It was great fun to meet more Tolkien fans in real life, we played the good old "Who am I?" game (I was the Gaffer) and discussed all kinds of M-e related topics.
However, the topic of the recent elections in our state was also brought up and everyone agreed that the change in leadership (from the Christian Democratic Union to the Green Party) was a good one.
Furthermore, ever since I started posting online on Tolkien forums, even before I was a BD member, I couldn't help but notice that the large majority of fans were left-wing supporters.

So my question is - why do you think that Tolkien appeals rather to people on the left? Is it the environmental aspect of M-e or the perfectly functioning system of the Shire that contribute? Is my assumption even true?

I'm looking forward to your answers and I want to again underline that this is not about politics, nor about which side you should support.

alatar · 04-03-2011, 08:22 PM

Someone at the Downs surely has said, "Everyone I meet there's a Tolkien fan."

Have you considered that the 'Tolkien fans who are left wing' may just be the subset that you know/have met? Have you looked at other common demographics (age, nationality, etc) that may better explain the data?

And how do you define 'fan?'

Inziladun · 04-03-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Might

So my question is - why do you think that Tolkien appeals rather to people on the left?

How does one define "left", anyway? What's "left" in one country might be considered rather conservative in another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Might

Is it the environmental aspect of M-e or the perfectly functioning system of the Shire that contribute? Is my assumption even true?

Personally, I see the Shire as being rather a Libertarian paradise; no police or court system, with everyone just doing as they please under no central authority, and all.

Mnemosyne · 04-03-2011, 09:52 PM

Orly?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-04-2011, 05:51 AM

Hmm, I really think Alatar has a point here. Despite certain impressions, I think it is really dependant largely upon the collective you appeared in. I think you might've fallen into the trap of "everyone here is a Tolkien fan" - when it's only a certain specific demographic group.

Similarly, on the internet, that is also already a certain selection of people (e.g. you don't have the chance to count into the "statistics" the people who don't use internet in the first place), and once again, depending on which websites you visit, that limits it once again, etc... it is possible that you might have visited a forum which is more "left-wing" by itself, but perhaps had you visited a different one... you see the point.

And last of all, yes, the definition of "left-wing".

So however much the thread idea is interesting, if we wanted to be scientifically precise (I hate statistics, personally, but for once), what you can say is not "Tolkien fans seem to be usually left-wing, both in RL and on the internet", but all you can say is "there are many people whose opinions can be considered left-wing by local standards in the local part of Tolkien society and on some selected websites". It only proves that there are some Tolkien fans who are left-wing, or that there are some communities where there are more of them.

Funnily enough, I just realised that of the RL fans I know, majority of them are actually right-wing - at least by local standards, or, say, given by whom they support in elections: but that's exactly already containing many predetermined facts, because here, in a post-communist country, "left wing" is, among certain groups of people (the sort of "young educated middle-class", and in general more in people who e.g. live in big cities), implying something negative; and especially in the last elections, if you voted for left-wing parties, you were suspected of trying to "bring the trouble of Greece" to our country. And so if e.g. around that time you'd have met some people on the internet, you'd get the impression that they are "right-wing" by how they'd be dissing the left, even if some of them in fact might not be as much.

Folwren · 04-04-2011, 06:52 AM

I know a lot of right-winger Tolkien fans (myself included). It probably is the circle one runs in, as the others say above. I have found that several members of the Downs are left-wing...but the majority of my Tolkien fan acquaintances are right-wings.

-- Foley

Bêthberry · 04-04-2011, 10:02 AM

I'll weigh in too and sorry, Might, to disavow your notion. I know many Downers who are right-wing but also many who are left-wing. And a few in the middle too. (Gasp! yes, I come from a country where there is a middle.)

I think one reason the BarrowDowns attracts people from across the political spectrum is that the Barrow Wight kept the focus of the forum on Tolkien and Tolkien-related matters (see, for instance, how Werewolf looks here), so people weren't posting on tangential things like local politics.

Tolkien wasn't an ideologue, so there's something in his work for every political point of view.

04-03-2011, 07:58 PM	#1
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Why are Tolkien fans usually left-wing? Before I explain more about why I'm starting this thread, I want to make it very clear that it's not about discussing politics and who is right or who is better. I respect all political positions as long as they do not belong to any of the extremes and I hope the same will be done within the thread. Anyway, this Saturday I attended a meeting of the local section of the German Tolkien Society. It was great fun to meet more Tolkien fans in real life, we played the good old "Who am I?" game (I was the Gaffer) and discussed all kinds of M-e related topics. However, the topic of the recent elections in our state was also brought up and everyone agreed that the change in leadership (from the Christian Democratic Union to the Green Party) was a good one. Furthermore, ever since I started posting online on Tolkien forums, even before I was a BD member, I couldn't help but notice that the large majority of fans were left-wing supporters. So my question is - why do you think that Tolkien appeals rather to people on the left? Is it the environmental aspect of M-e or the perfectly functioning system of the Shire that contribute? Is my assumption even true? I'm looking forward to your answers and I want to again underline that this is not about politics, nor about which side you should support. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

04-03-2011, 08:22 PM	#2
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Someone at the Downs surely has said, "Everyone I meet there's a Tolkien fan." Have you considered that the 'Tolkien fans who are left wing' may just be the subset that you know/have met? Have you looked at other common demographics (age, nationality, etc) that may better explain the data? And how do you define 'fan?' __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

04-03-2011, 09:52 PM	#4
Mnemosyne Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Between the past and the future Posts: 1,159	Orly? __________________ Got corsets?

04-04-2011, 05:51 AM	#5
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Hmm, I really think Alatar has a point here. Despite certain impressions, I think it is really dependant largely upon the collective you appeared in. I think you might've fallen into the trap of "everyone here is a Tolkien fan" - when it's only a certain specific demographic group. Similarly, on the internet, that is also already a certain selection of people (e.g. you don't have the chance to count into the "statistics" the people who don't use internet in the first place), and once again, depending on which websites you visit, that limits it once again, etc... it is possible that you might have visited a forum which is more "left-wing" by itself, but perhaps had you visited a different one... you see the point. And last of all, yes, the definition of "left-wing". So however much the thread idea is interesting, if we wanted to be scientifically precise (I hate statistics, personally, but for once), what you can say is not "Tolkien fans seem to be usually left-wing, both in RL and on the internet", but all you can say is "there are many people whose opinions can be considered left-wing by local standards in the local part of Tolkien society and on some selected websites". It only proves that there are some Tolkien fans who are left-wing, or that there are some communities where there are more of them. Funnily enough, I just realised that of the RL fans I know, majority of them are actually right-wing - at least by local standards, or, say, given by whom they support in elections: but that's exactly already containing many predetermined facts, because here, in a post-communist country, "left wing" is, among certain groups of people (the sort of "young educated middle-class", and in general more in people who e.g. live in big cities), implying something negative; and especially in the last elections, if you voted for left-wing parties, you were suspected of trying to "bring the trouble of Greece" to our country. And so if e.g. around that time you'd have met some people on the internet, you'd get the impression that they are "right-wing" by how they'd be dissing the left, even if some of them in fact might not be as much. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

04-04-2011, 06:52 AM	#6
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	I know a lot of right-winger Tolkien fans (myself included). It probably is the circle one runs in, as the others say above. I have found that several members of the Downs are left-wing...but the majority of my Tolkien fan acquaintances are right-wings. -- Foley __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

04-04-2011, 10:02 AM	#7
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,997	I'll weigh in too and sorry, Might, to disavow your notion. I know many Downers who are right-wing but also many who are left-wing. And a few in the middle too. (Gasp! yes, I come from a country where there is a middle.) I think one reason the BarrowDowns attracts people from across the political spectrum is that the Barrow Wight kept the focus of the forum on Tolkien and Tolkien-related matters (see, for instance, how Werewolf looks here), so people weren't posting on tangential things like local politics. Tolkien wasn't an ideologue, so there's something in his work for every political point of view. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.