Physiques

[skytree]

Other than Forlong the Fat, it seems there were no plus size or large physique people in Middle Earth. Aragorn and Boromir were large, powerful men but neither were described as any more than what could be perceived as athletically built. Elf or Man, no one seemed to be described as massive, enormous, huge and its surprising since there were so many warriors in his work. Such men aren't common but they exist in significant numbers in our own world and would naturally seem to be drawn to a martial life.

[Alfirin]

Well is a very very long shot, but some Hobbit tales tell of great Giants who guard the Hight Rhovannion passes along with orcs. If we 1. beleive the hobbit stories are accurate. and 2. Assume these giants are men, as opposed to some other oversized race (like trolls) these may represent a race of oversized men. Given that hobbits are a smallish race, thier definiton of "giant" may likewise be a bit smaller than ours, an unusually tall race of men might fit. Aragorn and Boromir are both of Gondorian/Numernorian stock, with so much elf blood in the lines they may be an unusually gracile people and just not prone to getting a lot of really big people.

[Galadriel55]

Bombur definitely is "extra-large".

[Nerwen]

What about Helm Hammerhand?

[Galadriel55]

How about Beorn?

[skytree]

Just thinking of some old English Kings, you had kings like Edward Longshanks or Richard the Lionhearted who were tall, athletically built like Aragorn but you also had kings like Edward the IV, or Alexander III of Russia who had huge physiques and were very robust and know for their immense strength.

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

I really don't think of Beorn, because it was the Hobbit and I think his nature will always be somewhat of a mystery even though Tolkien states he is a man. Helm, is really the only mention but even that is a brief narrative.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skytree

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

I'd agree that Tolkienien heroes tend to be "ectomorph" types... but you're not talking about the general picture, you're talking about "somewhere in the history of Middle-earth". We've supplied you with a couple of examples already, and you disallowed them using what I'd call special pleading ("Hobbit" characters don't count, briefly-appearing characters sort-of don't count...) Um... what does count?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skytree

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

Húrin.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Bombur definitely is "extra-large".

I thought Will Whitfoot was pretty big, too

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I thought Will Whitfoot was pretty big, too

I thought they were talking vertical size here. Otherwise, old Flourdumpling and Bombur the Dwarf might top Thingol himself.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by skytree

Other than Forlong the Fat, it seems there were no plus size or large physique people in Middle Earth. Aragorn and Boromir were large, powerful men but neither were described as any more than what could be perceived as athletically built. Elf or Man, no one seemed to be described as massive, enormous, huge and its surprising since there were so many warriors in his work. Such men aren't common but they exist in significant numbers in our own world and would naturally seem to be drawn to a martial life.

Partly I think different terms mean different things to different people. I mean I take athletically built as built like an athlete and in that rather depends on the discipline. A javelin thrower is going to be tall and powerful whereas a (middle) distance runner is going to be of a much slighter build and possibly only of medium height. So I would imagine Boromir described as both tall and strong to be rather larger that what I would think of as athletically built.. more like a Rugby player than a soccer player - but fit-weight not fat weight. Top rugby players can go up to 6"10 and 19 1/2 stone (273 lbs).

In UT it says how the Numenoreans had little cavalry because they had few horses that could bear men of their stature, certainly in armour.

So if you mean large as large (as in an oak tree is large compared to a birch)rather than as a gentler alternative to fat then I think there are people of large physiques other than exceptional characters such as Beorn. I do think there are few fat people (Barliman Butturbur is described so rather scornfully by Aragorn) because most of the characters are highly active and warriors in a time where food was not so freely available - either they are travelling and carrying there own rations or there may be rationing in force as seems to be the case in Minas Tirith when Pippin arrives. That kind of situation helps to keep the weight down even of those who are not naturally lean,

[Kuruharan]

...lets be honest about it, if one is ponderously overweight it tends to inhibit one's battle prowess just a bit.

While I would probably enjoy reading the saga of James the Morbidly Obese as he waddled about the field of glory during the Battle of Hind Quarters...my enjoyment of it would probably not be based on the heroic achievements of our rotund hero.

And what Mithalwen said.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by skytree

I guess Tolkien's idea or image of a powerful warrior was tall and athletic like Elendil.

In modern fighting, like MMA or Boxing, size and weight certainly is an advantage, but only up to a certain point. A champion heavy-weight boxer typically weighs in at around 90-100 kilos (190-220 lbs) and is almost never heavier than 115 kilos (255 lbs). Beyond that point the added power that comes with weight is overcome by the loss of mobility and stamina that also comes with the weight.

I would assume that this is also true when it comes to armed battle, man to man; perhaps even more so. Big is good, but too big is a problem.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Big is good, but too big is a problem.

It's not sumo wrestling.

[Galin]

Here's some (of my) ideas on relative tallness with respect to the period of the War of the Ring (the Numenoreans will have dwindled from 1150 TA when 'halfling' was coined). Please quibble if you like! I haven't set them all in stone for myself.

Good guys and bad guys

Hobbits: between 3 and 4 feet (Bullroarer and other notable hobbits excepted)

Dwarves: about 4 feet high at least (JRRT, late note)

Lesser orcs (snaga-types): 3.5 feet to 4.5 feet

Uruks: 4.5 to 5.5 feet and above -- that is, say a 5 foot 8 to 5 foot 10 inch Uruk being exceptionally huge for an orc (the 'huge' Orc-chieftain in Moria was almost 'man-high')

Gandalf: '... even bent must have been at least 5 ft. 6... Which would make him a short man even in modern England, especially with the reduction of a bent back.' (JRRT, late note)

Men in general, and Goblin-men or 'half-orcs': around 5 feet 10 to 6 feet, or 'man-high' (but not according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old)

Men of high Numenorean lineage (includes Boromir): 6 feet 4 or 'man-high' according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old. Includes Galadriel as well, and arguably Celeborn too.


The Rohirrim: '... were generally shorter, for in their far-off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Éomer was said to have been tall, of like height with Aragorn; but he with other descendants of King Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic (together in some cases with darker hair) from Morwen, Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Númenórean descent.' (Unfinished Tales)

I assume this means shorter than man-high according to the measure of the Dunedain -- but also I note what is said here of Éomer compared to text published years before: 'Éomer was like his fathers before him; but Éowyn was slender and tall, with a grace and pride that came to her out of the South from Morwen of Lossarnach, whom the Rohirrim had called Steelsheen.' (Appendix A) Éomer was Éomund's son of course, and Morwen's blood is traced through Théodwyn. I think 'his fathers before him' refers to Éomund's line (noting too that Théodwyn's father is Thengel, Morwen's husband). And seemingly in comparison -- interestingly, with mention of her physique -- it is rather Éowyn who gets noted traits from Morwen.


Aragorn: at least 6 foot 6 (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin men: no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Thingol, Turgon, and Argon seem be the tallest of the Children of Eru, despite that the Numenoreans, at their peak, were very tall of course. Maedros is nick-named the Tall, as well as Elendil -- but for Elendil there appears to be two variant (IMO) late descriptions regarding just how tall he was.





For the Eldar I chose a late note where Tolkien reacts to an illustration made by Pauline Baynes -- over another late description in Of Dwarves And Men where the Eldar appear to be generally taller. I have no real evidence as to which text came after the other, so my choice is rather based on my opinion: that I think one description better allows for more of Tolkien's late statements to fit together.

Compared to the height of Eldarin men noted above, for example, Of Dwarves and Men notes that: 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by Galin

Aragorn: at least 6 foot 6 (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin men: no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Compared to the height of Eldarin men noted above, for example, Of Dwarves and Men notes that: 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

Anyone want to play some basketball?