Currency in Aman and Arda?

[Galadriel]

I know, I know. I just started two threads in quick succession. So sue me By the way, I think this topic has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere, so I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

I'm a little confused about the currency in Aman and Arda. It's said that Aman grew rich with the jewels of the Noldor, but I've never seen elves engage in any kind of monetary trade or system. There seems to be a very primitive sort of barter system, where one favour is met with another. I know that jewels and pearls were given to the Dwarves when they built Menegroth, but I still don't know. There seems to be little distinction between an elf that is a fisherman and an elf that's a lord, only that their jobs are different, and the lord probably wears better clothes. The reason I'm saying this is because I've never seen an elf-servant (there's a butler in The Hobbit, but even he seems to be rather authoritative); that probably indicates that elves were generally rather well-off, and few engaged in 'lowly' jobs.

The only currency I've come across in ME is the silver pennies that are used in Bree when Merry loses his ponies.

Either way, could someone clear this up? Thanks!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As for most of the kingdoms of Men, I guess that's just what you said - the silver pennies, I am not aware of any other mention of currency elsewhere. We can only speculate if there was more or less unified currency (perhaps left from the Númenorean times), or if other kinds of people had different currencies of their own. It would make sense, in my opinion, if the more "primitive" nations of Men had simpler sort of barter-systems, somewhere using different things than money as the "currency" (as in, it used to be e.g. silk in some nations in the past in our world, and so on); and those who came in contact with the Dúnedain (so in time of LotR, the lands which used to be the provinces of Gondor and Arnor, including Hobbit-lands; it seems logical that Rohanians would accept the system as well by that time) started to use money (which I can easily imagine being "invented" by the Númenoreans, especially with their sort of colonial system it would make a lot of sense, because they would need some common currency for trade among themselves, when their merchants brought goods from various parts of the world).

As for other races, and earlier times, I can imagine the Dwarves trading for gems and various metal ingots, of which they'd have really abundant amount. Gems and precious metals would be used also in "inter-racial trade", as it seems to be mentioned also in Sil and everywhere. It is worth mentioning that in the Hobbit, Thorin, when explaining the history of Erebor to Bilbo, mentions that the Dwarves under the Mountain used to trade their craft for food provided by the Men of Dale; and it is not clear whether they used money as a sort of means for it or if it was just a sort of barter-trade. Also, I don't know if the Dwarves would have had any need for having a currency among themselves.

Personally, my belief is that the non-human races would have had rather different system of trade, or even a rather different attitude towards personal ownership. For that matter, I am pretty convinced that the Elves did not really care - yes, that's the word - about private ownership of something. Everything indicates that they did not have much of a bond to material things (with a few exceptions, and note that it is mostly considered negative, like Fëanor's case). Also, you never hear about any social differences between Elves in this manner - simply because, I believe, there was nothing to begin with. Yes, an Elven King probably had much more fancy clothes than the others, adorned with jewellery and such, but that was simply as a symbol of his status as a King, which had nothing to do with ownership - and the other Elves would simply not wear an adorned crown, because they were not the King, but if they wanted, I think nothing would prevent them from getting themselves one. Especially given the Elven immortality, it is only natural that they would not care so much about material possessions - as they would pass, sooner or later, while the Elf will continue living. The Elves seemed to merrily enjoy material pleasures when they lasted - their houses, food, drink, clothes, everything was wonderful, we are told - but they were not, sort of, bound to it. They also enjoyed the nature and so on, which of course did not belong to anybody, and I think they'd perceive their crafted materials in the same way: simply as an "extension" of the nature, something they only made more beautiful, but using the substance which did not belong to anybody in the first place. Of course, if an Elf warrior owned a sword, the others perceived it as his and would not use it, but there was probably no need for "law" like that, and nobody would come to him asking "how much do you want for it?" If the Elf wanted to give it away, he would do so and anybody could pick the sword up, but if he didn't want to, nobody would force him. We can see an echo of this, I believe, also in the request of the Valar themselves to Fëanor: they had the respect for private property in this way that they would not force Fëanor to give his Silmarils away as they were his. Note also that they did not start talking about buying them from him or something.

In general terms, I would say the Elven society would be the closest to what we might call communism: each Elf was working, but when it came to making a banquet (like in Gildor's case), it really did not matter who eats five pieces of bread and who eats only one, it seemed that they had always more than enough, and so one can assume that for example an Elven baker would not mind how much of lembas he made, because he seemingly just enjoyed making them and also sort of knew that if he wanted a jeweller to make him some nice jewels, he would do it for him just the same as he bakes the bread for him.

In any case, at least when it comes to Aman, I cannot imagine any sort of currency existing there - given that it was a Paradise-sort of land, it was really not necessary to trade anything for anything there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As for most of the kingdoms of Men, I guess that's just what you said - the silver pennies, I am not aware of any other mention of currency elsewhere. We can only speculate if there was more or less unified currency (perhaps left from the Númenorean times), or if other kinds of people had different currencies of their own. It would make sense, in my opinion, if the more "primitive" nations of Men had simpler sort of barter-systems, somewhere using different things than money as the "currency" (as in, it used to be e.g. silk in some nations in the past in our world, and so on); and those who came in contact with the Dúnedain (so in time of LotR, the lands which used to be the provinces of Gondor and Arnor, including Hobbit-lands

Well, there is at least one other mention of coinage in LOTR: curiously enough it also occurs in Bree. Gandalf evidently gave a "gold piece" to Butturbur out of relief that Aragorn had found the Hobbits there.

The fact that gold and silver coins were used in Bree (and probably the Shire, too, since we have many mentions of "money" by the Hobbits) would seem to add weight to the idea that at least the Kingdom of Arnor might have once had a common currency. And in Bree and the Shire, where there was apparently no central government or authority, and thus no "government" workers, only currency trading or bartering would make the local economy workable. I'm inclined to think it was only currency, because of something Butturbur said.

'[Mr. Underhill's] welcome to go where he will, as long as he pays in the morning.'

FOTR At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

No trade or service was expected of Frodo, just payment. There'd been no talk of what service Frodo and his friends could provide, nor of anything they had to trade.
Additionally, I don't recall any reference to banks or counting houses in Bree or the Shire where currency exchanges could be done, and the Kingdom or Arnor had been gone for over a thousand years, so I would think the coins would have been simple metal discs, accepted everywhere the inhabitants of those areas were likely to go.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As for other races, and earlier times, I can imagine the Dwarves trading for gems and various metal ingots, of which they'd have really abundant amount. Gems and precious metals would be used also in "inter-racial trade", as it seems to be mentioned also in Sil and everywhere. It is worth mentioning that in the Hobbit, Thorin, when explaining the history of Erebor to Bilbo, mentions that the Dwarves under the Mountain used to trade their craft for food provided by the Men of Dale; and it is not clear whether they used money as a sort of means for it or if it was just a sort of barter-trade. Also, I don't know if the Dwarves would have had any need for having a currency among themselves.

The Dwarves who traveled through Eriador at least had some of the gold and silver coins to use in Bree and the Shire, I would think. Else they'd always be hauling around gems and possibly metal-crafted things to trade, and I'd think that would be pretty cumbersome to the traveler.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that gold and silver coins were used in Bree (and probably the Shire, too, since we have many mentions of "money" by the Hobbits) would seem to add weight to the idea that at least the Kingdom of Arnor might have once had a common currency. And in Bree and the Shire, where there was apparently no central government or authority, and thus no "government" workers, only currency trading or bartering would make the local economy workable. I'm inclined to think it was only currency, because of something Butturbur said.
[...]
Additionally, I don't recall any reference to banks or counting houses in Bree or the Shire where currency exchanges could be done, and the Kingdom or Arnor had been gone for over a thousand years, so I would think the coins would have been simple metal discs, accepted everywhere the inhabitants of those areas were likely to go.

The currency systems of the Shire and Gondor were discussed last year in this thread (which also contains some links to older ones). It seems plausible to assume that the Hobbits inherited their monetary system from the North Kingdom of old, and that the currencies of Gondor and Arnor were more or less alike if not the same (possibly pre-dating the kingdoms in exile and originating with the Númenórean colonial empire, like Legate suggested).

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Dwarves who traveled through Eriador at least had some of the gold and silver coins to use in Bree and the Shire, I would think. Else they'd always be hauling around gems and possibly metal-crafted things to trade, and I'd think that would be pretty cumbersome to the traveler.

Probably yes. I also can't quite see the Dwarves returning home from their travels with caravans of cattle and wagons laden with grain - it seems more likely to me that they sold the products of their craft for coin which they used to buy food from Men who lived nearer their homes and have it delivered to them.

In general, I think the Dwarves were somewhat more preoccupied with notions of property and private ownership than the Elves - at least in their dealings with other peoples (see the quarrel about the Nauglamír back in the First Age). Among themselves, such issues may not have mattered quite as much, except perhaps between the different Houses (e.g. I could see the Longbeards of Moria trading mithril for gold and silver with their distant relatives); but I doubt they used any internal currency for that, in so far I'm with Legate here.

As for the Elves, I feel Legate has hit the nail on the head; and when we're talking about Aman, any idea of trade and barter seems quite out of question to me. (If you want evidence, the Silmarillion says the Noldor freely gave gems and jewels to the Teleri to do with as they pleased; and later, Fëanor in turn didn't ask Olwë 'How much for those ships', nor did he demand them as recompense for earlier gifts, but asked for permission to use them for old friendship's sake.)

[Puddleglum]

Just a couple of observations to add...

In Aman it is said of Aule:

The delight and pride of Aule is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in posession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work.

Since Aule was the greatest friend (among the Valar) of the Noldor, it seems reasonable to assume that they, at least, would tend to adopt the same attitude toward making and possessing. That is, they would take such delight in the making of things (rather than in possessing them) that giving to your friends and kin (and others) would be the norm - rather than attempting to amass wealth by barter (buy-low, sell-high).

In Middle Earth, in the Hobbit, another example of trading is described where Thranduil's Wood Elves received barrels of apples, goods and wine (some from the vineyards of Dorwinion, near the sea of Ruhn) came up the river and were trans-shipped by the Lakemen. I don't thnk it's said how they paid (in goods or money), but it seems plain they paid in some way.

Also, in Rivendell Gloin tells Frodo about the tolls charged by the Beornings - indicating yet another case of payment being made (goods or money is not specified) for a service or passage.

[Morthoron]

Tolkien did not do commerce very well; in fact, he merely ignored it unless it served a specific purpose to move the story along (the barrel trade with Laketown, for instance, where there is no mention of what the Elves could use in trade/barter/currency).

The Shire and Bree are even more of an anomaly. Considering the last King of Arthedain perished nearly 1000 years previously, it seems incredible that there would be any Dunedain coinage remaining from that time period. Likewise, the Shire had no trade south to Gondor, therefore it seems unlikely that the tharni and castar coins minted in Minas Tirith would have made their way up the Greenway in an amount necessary to be used as everyday coinage.

So, how were deeds and other legal transactions processed? Who paid for the postal service and bounders (as taxation was never mentioned)? No pawn shops or usury (an age-old practice in the real world), no banks -- but, amusingly, there were lawyers (Messrs Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes).

Much like commodes and outhouses, Tolkien simply did not go into detail; otherwise, he would need a many-paged treatise explaining trade, finance, numismatics and global economics. Considering the numerous problems with his personal finances, it is my opinion that Tolkien wanted to stay as far away as possible from the dread realities of finance, even in a fantasy.

[Galadriel]

That was a very well thought out answer But could you clear up one more thing for me, if you don't mind: For the elves in Aman and Arda, were there shops and places they could ask for clothes and the like? Or did they have to make them themselves?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

That was a very well thought out answer But could you clear up one more thing for me, if you don't mind: For the elves in Aman and Arda, were there shops and places they could ask for clothes and the like? Or did they have to make them themselves?

Well, bear in mind that although it is all based on the sources we have, it is purely my conclusion, perhaps somebody might disagree. Nevertheless, as for your question, I think it is the same - I cannot imagine Elves having "shops" in real at all. If you wanted, say, new clothes, either you had to make them yourself, or you went to somebody whom you knew (and bear in mind that among the Elves, probably everybody knew more or less everybody, given their lifespan), and asked him to make it for you. I got the impression that the Elves preferred to make the clothes for themselves, as that's also the way to make them most to their liking, but obviously there also were some folks who tended to make clothes for the others - for example, in Lórien, we read that the cloaks for the Fellowship were made by Galadriel and some of her maidens, I assume from time to time some Elves might've been given them as well. Also from other things, I think acquiring new possessions among the Elves was often through the way of a gift - you can also see it with the Fellowship, or with various visitors in Menegroth and so on - you simply didn't come and ask "hello, how much would this bow cost?", but somebody gave it to you. I assume that, let's say, if an elven hunter discovered that he needs a new bow, mostly by the time he would start asking for it, some of his good friends would have already noticed it and made him a new one, or something like that. Of course, that's one of the things. Given how skilled the Eldar usually were, I believe they made lots of things for themselves. But there were probably always people around willing to make something for you, if you asked them.

[Galadriel]

I just saw something very interesting in Unfinishes Tales, of the Druedain: "...the Atani had a knowledge of metals and smith-craft before they came to Beleriand, for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly.

So. There was a sort of monetary system perhaps, even at that time with the Edain...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I just saw something very interesting in Unfinishes Tales, of the Druedain: "...the Atani had a knowledge of metals and smith-craft before they came to Beleriand, for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly.

So. There was a sort of monetary system perhaps, even at that time with the Edain...

Well, "costly" does not have to mean price in coins. Especially in this context of early times, it simply means that they were rare. Imagine some ancient cultures of our Earth in their beginnings, the weapons there were costly too, when there still was not anything like money. It simply meant that you had to give twenty cows or two horses for a sword (and a bad one, at that).

It does not really make sense for the Edain to use any monetary system before they came to Beleriand, what for, expecially if they were just tribal, migrating people (and basically all in one place - who would they trade with)?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, "costly" does not have to mean price in coins. Especially in this context of early times, it simply means that they were rare. Imagine some ancient cultures of our Earth in their beginnings, the weapons there were costly too, when there still was not anything like money. It simply meant that you had to give twenty cows or two horses for a sword (and a bad one, at that).

It does not really make sense for the Edain to use any monetary system before they came to Beleriand, what for, expecially if they were just tribal, migrating people (and basically all in one place - who would they trade with)?

True. But that's just my interpretation, though your answer is more realistic. I just like to think there was some kind of exchange system that went beyond a simple barter system. You're right, they probably traded in terms of cloth and cows, but I think there might have been a monetary system lurking around somewhere...