Seeking asylum? Sorry we are racist...

[Mattius]

Its painfully obvious that the Valar had much more love for the elves than they did for men and dwarves (with perhaps the exception of Aule).

When elves awoke they were summoned to live with the Valar, yet when men and dwarves awoke they had no word of welcome from them. Strange that I thought.

This led me onto another thought. What if Sauron had been successful in the War of the Ring and gained control of Middle-Earth. There would have almost definatly been refugees of elves, men and dwarves. The elves would then have just shipped themselves over the west sea and I would think that the men and dwarves would follow them (I know I would).

So what would the Valar have done in this situation, with men and dwarves seeking asylum in Valinor? Would they have sent them back, let them stay, killed them? Well okay the latter one is pretty unlikely but thats what happened when Ar Pharazon (sp?) set foot on the Undying Lands and it was also Sauron's fault that he did so.

Peace out!

[Legolas]

They wouldn't have made it to Valinor. After Ar-Pharazon attempted to land there, Aman was removed from Arda and could not be reached by just any ship.

I agree with you Legolas. The elves would not have arrived at Valinor. But I think they would not have arrived at Arda because they could not physically reach it. During the Fifth Battle of middle earth, several of Cirdan's ships carrying elven folk tried to reach Valinor in vain. Osse kept thwarting their efforts.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, Men weren't able to reach Vailnor themselves. But the point is nevertheless a good one. The Valar would presumably have been aware that Men were trying to flee a Sauron-dominated ME. They would also presumably have had the wherewithal to bring them there if they had wished. So, what would they have done in these circumstances. Simply refused them entry?

PS Very topical, Mattius. We can imagine what Valinor's version of the Daily Mail would have been urging. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Carrûn]

I could be completely wrong, but I believe that I read somewhere that the Valar where not involved with the lives of Men for the reason that the Second Children of Iluvatar were meant to be more in direct contact with Eru himself.

And as far as them seeking asylum, they couldn't have gotten there unless they travelled with the Elves and I doubt the Elves would allow them. It has happened of course, but is the exception not the rule.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Perhaps the Valar knew that Sauron would be defeated by men. We can be fairly certain that Eru knew what the outcome would be, so maybe he bid the Valar to wait, send the Istari for aid, and let the men and dwarves win their own war, as he knew they would.

[Deathwail]

Dont forget to that the Valar do have their own free will and just cause Manwe does not want them giving help to man kind that does not mean they wont.Ulmo helped Tuor so whats to say he would not help men again.There is a reason evil things fear running water still even in the third age and thats cause Ulmo was still very much in Middle Earth unlike the other Valar.Ulmo said himself he only goes to Valinor when he has to and does not stay longer then he must as he has no liking for dry land.

[Aratlithiel]

I would agree with Deathwail. I am convinced that Elbereth (Varda) was the one helping Sam along as he guided Frodo through Mordor. He called upon her more than once (A Elbereth Gilthoniel) and each time was answered in some form. I just can't bring myself to believe that if the worst happened that the Valar would have turned their backs.

[Lalaith]

I believe that the reason men and dwarves could not go to Valinor was because they were mortal and the Undying Lands were only for immortals. That's why elves were ok.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

1. Only Elves could reach Aman.

2. If men went to the undying lands then they would die very quickly. They would wither like a moth in a great light, or something like that as oneElf put it. Aman is not for mortals. Men, seeing how they die even faster then the plants and beasts, which were specially created as to obey the longeveal life of Elves and Ainur and they would become jealous of them, like the Numenoreans, but to a greater extent, and they would become evil, tainting Aman.

On the Valar helping Frodo and co. I think Ulmo had a part in helping Frodo and Sam finding water in Mordor. He never abandoned M-E. Ulmo is my favourite Vala.

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[doug*platypus]

1. I think it's less interesting or informative to point out "this is so", rather than "this is so, because...".

2. Frodo and Bilbo were sent to Tol Eressëa (at least). I can't recall if this counts as part of the Undying Lands (even though not part of Aman). Their stay at any rate would have been both pointless and cruel if they were to die very quickly like a moth in a flame.

You raise an excellent point about the favouritism of the Valar, Mattius. I think the best answer is along the lines of what Inderjit was saying, that the fate of the mortal men and dwarves was different from elves, and an indefinite stay in the Undying Lands is only really appropriate for the immortal elves. I also wonder if dwarves and men would be happier in Aman than in Middle-Earth. Valinor always seemed kind of boring, to me. Too many Vanyar, and not enough sinning. Give me Middengeard any day.

[Jurion]

While all Elves could reach Valinor, some humans can reach it by some fate or weird coincidence, but it would be unlikely that the Valar would have allowed human and dwarven refugees to enter the Straight Road.

Rather, if Sauron had been victorious in the War of the Ring, the Valar would have send an army to Middle Earth to overthrow him as they did with Morgoth.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

doug-Eressea is not counted part of Aman. Frodo, Bilbo and Sam were granted a special sojourn which was agreed by the big man himself-Eru so that they could stay in Eressea. I doubt whether men could get that. It's not in their nature.

Jurion-those humans who by some fate saw Valinor died.They never reached it, just caught a tantalsiing glimpse of it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Jurion]

And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.

Silmarillion, Akallabeth

This suggest that people could reach Aman itself, not just Tol Eressea. And Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli died, they were only healed for a short time.

[Legolas]

Eressea is part of Aman. It's just not part of Valinor.

Anyway, I was just noting that mortals couldn't sail to Valinor since it was removed from Arda. The ensuing discussion seemed to be based on that post.

What Mattius was really getting at is "Would the Valar enable mortals to sail to Valinor for refuge if Sauron took over Middle-earth?"

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[annuncolloion]

This situation would not exist. Most men and dwarves barely knew of the Undying lands. So they wouldn't have thought to go there. Also, men would not have left ME. They would have stayed and fought till the end. If they saw this as in vain. They would have attempted to set sail and refind Numenor

[Arwen Imladris]

We don't know what happens to men/dwarves/hobbits when they die. For all we know, "out of the circles of this world" could be a much better place than Valinor! I don't think that it is fair to say that the Valar loved elves more. Elves, they didn't have to die, but were they not also often very sad? Imortality is not always a good thing. For all we know, the Valar loved men the best by allowing them to leave the world, maybe they hated the elves and made them live forever! I don't know, this is just another way to look at things.

[Jurion]

The Valar had nothing to do with the fate of either men or elves. It was Eru who set the rules for men and elves. To the elves he gave life as long as the earth would exist, their souls would not be allowed to leave Ea. To men he gave the gift of death, and let them escape the world, giving them an escape even in times of extreme need, when all hope seems gone.

Numenor is gone, it drowned beneath the waves in the Second Age. When Ar Pharazon asailed Valinor, Manwe and the other Valar gave up their governement over Arda. Eru then changed the face of the world and removed Valinor and Tol Eressea from the mortal world. In the cataclysm that followed Numenor was drowned.

No, I don't think the valar would allow 'normal' mortals to enter the Straight Road and sail to Valinor and Eressea. That right they gave only to the elves and sometimes to special mortals such as the Ringbearers, and sometimes by chance another mortal might find himself on the Straight Road.

[Aratlithiel]

Well, yeah, OK...but do you really think Eru would allow the remaining Men to suffer through lives of terror and darkness just because they get to die at the end of it? I'm not liking this Eru much right now.

[Legolas]

This situation would not exist. Most men and dwarves barely knew of the Undying lands. So they wouldn't have thought to go there. Also, men would not have left ME. They would have stayed and fought till the end. If they saw this as in vain. They would have attempted to set sail and refind Numenor

It's not a question of whether or not it would exist. It is supposed in this hypothetical situation, and if you think it's ridiculous, why comment?

The men and dwarves may not have been aware of Aman. Perhaps then, the Valar would they summon the other free peoples like they did the elves? The elves didn't just wake up and magically head west...they were summoned to safety from Morgoth. The Valar debated heavily on the matter; even Ulmo, second in might, thought it was a bad idea. Why is it then ridiculous to consider the idea that they might do the same with Sauron if he proved to be to great for the armies of Middle-earth to handle?

The men and dwarves would have to be suspicious if all of the elves just suddenly sailed off. Who is to say some other races wouldn't have tried to follow them? I see it as likely.

The initial post posed that Sauron had gained control over Middle-earth. This, to me, would mean that the armies of Gondor and Rohan, if not mostly destroyed, would be hiding in the mountains and forests. The great towers and fortresses of old would undoubtedly be taken over. Men would have nowhere left to fight from (or nothing to fight for, really).

Would the Valar sent a mightier force than the Istari? Brought their own army of elves/Maiar over to do something about it?

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Mattius]

After reading all of your great posts I have myself concluded that the Valar would most likely have a Second War of Wrath but probably send Finarfin and his elves to ME as a load of Gods showing up would probably kill many men and dwarves with sheer shock.

Man that would have been awesome, imagine the size of THAT army, there would be so many elves!!!

[Eru]

yeah, i'm sure by the time the War of the Ring occured, there were many, many elves in Aman.

[Mattius]

Exactly, imagine ow they had multipiled with thousands upon thousands of years of peace and how much stronger they would be then regualr ME elves for having spent all that time with the Valar!

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

in book of lost tales 1 it says:

Now Elves and Men were of Iluvitars devising only... yet seeing that Iluvitar made the Eldar most like in nature if not in power and stature to the Ainur, while to Men he gave strange gifts, their dealings have been chiefly with elves.

~Menelien

[ May 07, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Deathwail]

Do keep in mind though that Sauron next to Morgoth really does not have the kind of army to stand up to any real threat like a ****ed off Valar,not once did Orcs alone win a major battle during the first age.Just think of it this way,Manwe sends Tulkus to Barad-dur and there Tulkus laughs in Saurons face then breaks Sauron in two like a twig.Really would be about that easy. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Mattius]

Well I could argue and ask why didn't Tulkas just go there and break Sauron but then this topic would just be about the Valar leaving men to their own devices and whether gods should help their people blah blah blah!!

[Jurion]

Well, you must take in to account the fact that the Valar were no longer the rulers of Middle Earth in the Third Age, they gave up their rulership after the Numenoreans tried to invade Aman.

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Illuvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda.

From Akkalabeth, Silmarillion

But still the Valar would have most likely sent an army if Sauron had conquered Middle Earth, just like they had sent the Istari, but they would not have come themselves. They would probably have sent an army of Elves as was suggested above.

[doug*platypus]

Jurion-those humans who by some fate saw Valinor died.

Inderjit - Tuor.

I don't think that it is fair to say that the Valar loved elves more.

It might not be fair of the Valar, but they definitely preferred Elves to Men, who were strange and unpredictable, or to dwarves who were weird and ugly. Galariel of the Olden is right in noting that the Eldar were most like the Valar, and therefore held dearest by them.

I think that all but a select few Men would have followed a summons of the Valar. Men seemed in general to have had a mistrust of them. And I don't think that anything less than the Smith God himself could have presuaded the Dwarves to go to Valinor. And even then they may be unwilling to desert their homes or the familiar lands.

Also, I doubt whether most of the Valar would want either Men or Dwarves in Valinor. Not after what happened with Fëanor, and later Ar-Pharazôn. I think that rather than endangering their own homes, the Valar would largely (with the exception of Ulmo and perhaps others) have left the mortals to their fate in Middle-Earth, leaving them in Ilúvatar's hands.

[Deathwail]

That last post was just a bit of fun,sorry for derailing the thread a bit [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Deathwail ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

We don't actually know that Tuor reached Aman, that is just a mannish legend.

[Legolas]

Tuor was made immortal by Eru. Whether the Valar wanted him in Aman or not, he was there because the big man said so.

I doubt Ulmo would've been bothered by men or dwarves in Aman. He didn't live there. About the Valar wanting men and dwarves in Aman - maybe not. They didn't want Sauron to rule Middle-earth either, though. They would've had to done something about it, if not take in the mortals.

That being said, what do you think about the possibility of history repeating itself?

Similar to how Ulmo brought the Teleri to Mana, another island is made for the dwarves and men and moved to Aman, or at least a distance from Middle-earth.

Maybe this new island, or the men/dwarves stay in Aman, would be temporary, while the armies of all the good races battled Sauron.

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[drigel]

The fate (or gift) of men was that they were not linked with Arda - so I dont think they would make the trip. I see it as they would simply circumnavigate the earth and possibly find refuge in what would be a pre-historic North America...(?)
I dont think that the ships of men would see the sea falling away from them as a ship that was allowed the "straight road" would.
I agree with Deathwail on the influence of Ulmo in the LotR. Very understated influence (nobody cries out "Ai Ulmo and Osse" lol) but consider: the Mirror, the Phial, Anduin, Frodo and Sam in Morder, Dimrill Dale.... mabye Ulmo had more contact with the players than any of the Vala......

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I believe there may have been a few Islands lying around the seas of Arda somewhere that they could have excavated to.