WW LXXXII: Return to Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Thinlómien]

"As your king, I do not forbid you to go. But as your friend, I advise you not to."
Lady Thinlómien looked up at Finrod Felgund, king of Nargothrond, a little defiantly.
"But Celegorm and Curufin are not hunting wolves. Soon they'll be running amok ever closer to Nargothrond." The words came out as an accusation although that was not the Lady's intention.
"They are your kinsmen, Thinlómien, and although I am their king they are their own lords and may hunt as they will."
"Then I will go, in their stead."
"My heart is heavy. I see only darkness ahead of you and those who may go with you."
Thinlómien knelt before him. Gently, she said: "Somebody has to go and stop the hounds of Sauron. Let me go, my king."
"Go then, friend. Anar kalúva tielyanna."

So Lady Thinlómien went and chose the fourteen best hunters of her household. Among them were her three childhood friends; the Four Singers they had been called in the West though few now remembered it. They accepted her invitations gravely, the one who sang great songs of growth and warding, the one to whom songs came in dreams and the singer who was even more fiery in spirit than Lady Thinlómien herself. Foreseeing an unknown evil, she asked her friends to keep their gifts in secret and use them only in the direst need.

So they set out, Thinlómien and the best hunters of her household and a dozen friends of hers. Once they had set out of the gates of Nargothrond, they were joined by Huan, the mighty hound of Thinlómien's kinsman Celegorm, who hunted even when his master chose not to.

Days they travelled in the wildernesses and desolate lands, bordering ever closer to the dreadful isle of Tol-in-Gaurhoth which had once been the beautiful fortress of Minas Tirith. They hunted down and slew many wolves, until they were waylaid by the great wolf Draugluin and a host of wargs and orcs. The Elves fought valiantly, but they were overpowered and instead of killing them, the enemies sought to take them captive. The noble hound Huan slew many wolves but before he could engage in a fight with their leader, Thinlómien turned to him and spoke: "Huan, you loyal friend! Flee now that you still can and take tidings of our fate to Nargothrond. Your fate lies still ahead of you while our path darkens. Go, there is no hope in this fight!" The wise hound bowed his head and reluctantly he slipped to the growing darkness and ran away.

Lady Thinlómien and those who remained of her folk - seven hunters; Eönwë and Wilwarin, solitary Shastanis, impatient Nerwen, young Ozban, old Green and the sleepy master Nogrod, Pitch the Furrier, the jeweller Legate and the weaponsmith Inziladun, Boromir the Gatewarden, Glirdan the Scholar, Skip who seeked to impress the Lady Finduilas and the youth Loslote who had pleaded to come along - were made captive and taken to the Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Isle of Werewolves.

They were taken to Sauron, the right hand of the Enemy and a lord of werewolves. He questioned them and wanted to know who they were and what they were doing. The Elves refused to tell him anything, and only when he threatened to torture her folk did Lady Thinlómien tell him who they were and what was their mission. And Sauron laughed, for he was pleased.
"Hunters of wolves, you say. Then I will save your lives - if you go to the north and steal the cubs of the dire wolves there and bring them to me to raise, I will save your lives and you can live here as respected servants of a mighty lord."
"We will never serve the dark!" Lady Thinlómien burst out.
"That we will see. Take the Elves to the dungeons and torture them to see if they yield. If they don't, take them to the pits and my wolves will devour them one by one until they do."
"You will not do this to me and my people! We will never yield!"
Sauron laughed again and angered by his mockery, Lady Thinlómien wove a great song into which she put all her power and all her love for the beautiful things of this world and of the world in the West and sought to bring the light of the other side into the dark castle. Threatened, Sauron wove his own song, and a mighty singer was he indeed. The love and beauty he destroyed with hate and cruelty and the light with a never-ending darkness. So was the Elven Lady's song shattered and broken, she was taken to the dungeons and her fourteen companions were taken with her.

Long they were tortured by Sauron's servants, but none of them faltered, none would give in. Enraged, Sauron took three of them and with a great spell of evil, destroyed all that was good in their minds and left only the vilest thoughts and darkest desires. Then he cloaked them in hides of great wolves. "You belong to me now. Every night, you shall slay one of them until they give in to me or until only you, my loyal ones, remain. You know who to start with."

By ill luck the most faint-hearted of Lady Thinlómien's folk happened to hear these words in the pit where she was shackled. A great despair settled on her and she knew there was no other chance for her to survive this than to give in to the Enemy. She begged him to take her as his servant but he scorned her and asked: "Why should I take as mine the most cowardly?" And she cried, shamed, and wished to die. There was only one path out of this for her now: to try to find the three the Lord of Werewolves had changed and gain their sympathy.

When night finally fell, all the Elves were taken to the deepest and darkest of all the dungeons on the isle. There the lay in quiet dread until they fell asleep.

~*~

Night 1 has now begun. Wolves, you may PM with each other. Seer, you may send me your first dream. Hunter, if you for some weird reason want to make a pick toNight, you are allowed to do so.

~*~

The Player List
A Little Green - veteran hunter with a striking resemblance to an opossum
Boromir88 - incompetent gatewarden
Eönwë - hunter
Glirdan - local batty scholar
Inziladun - weaponsmith
Legate of Amon Lanc - jeweller with an affinity to the colour white
Loslote - young tag-along girl with frizzy hair
Nerwen - young and impatient hunter who makes animal statues of wood and likes the colour green
Nogrod - narcoleptic master-hunter
Ozban - young and naive hunter and admirer of Finrod Felagund
Pitchwife - furrier
Shastanis Althreduin - orphan solitary hunter who moves silently, likes blue and has a pet snake
skip spence - an admirer of Finduilas's
wilwarin538 - hunter


The Admin Thread with the Rules

[Thinlómien]

It was pitch dark in the pit and all the sounds were muffled by the suffocating pressure that lay in the air. The three whose wills had been taken by the lord of wolves seeked each other out at the secret gate that led out of the pit. Now in their wolf skins they exchanged a few words - almost gnarls - and let their canine noses take them to her who was to die tonight.

Lady Thinlómien was not asleep and she could hear their soft paws on the stone floor. She sat up erect, looking up to where the sky and the stars should've been but where there was only black. She knew they were coming for her, but there was no strength left in her, she was all spent by the brief and terrible contest of wills with the dark so much beyond her power.

A warm wave of foul breath touched her face.
"So you have come," she said.
"Yes," whispered one of them.
"There are no words for the horror that befell you. I pity you," she said. She had heard their torture and had been unable to stop it. "The Eldar do not take their own lives willingly, but maybe you should do it this once."
"We are no Eldar. We are wolves now," said another of the foreign voices.
"Who were you?" Thinlómien said softly. Her voice was barely more than a whisper.
"We have no names now," said a third voice, and the first one said: "Not in the dark."
"Do what you came to do, then," Thinlómien said sharply. "There might be no hope for me anymore, but there will be hope for others."
"Hope? There is no hope in this place," said the second voice and with one graceful movement a wolf's claw across her throat, lady Thinlómien lay dead in the cold dungeon.

The wolves retreated and resumed their places along the walls of the pit. Slowly they drifted to dreamless sleep.

The Ranger, as she had once been called jokingly by her friends who were greatly amused of her protectivity, did not sleep that night. Something horrible was happening, she knew, but there was no way for her to stop it, not yet. Quietly she sang a great song of growth and warding until her hair reached to her toes. Then she told it to come off and made a great dark net out of it and wove all her strength as threads to a pattern of protection. All night she worked with her net of warding and when dawn finally came, she hid it among the shadows that crawled along the walls.

The Seer, as she had once been nicknamed by her childhood friend Thinlómien, did sleep. Among the nightmares of the terrible Isle of Werewolves, she forced the music of her dreams bring before her eyes the heart of one of her companions to see if there was evil there. When she woke up, she knew.

The Hunter, so called because she was the most courageous and cunning of all the hunters captured, was the first one to detect the faintest trace of sunlight in the air, invincibly streaming from a tiny crack in the roof. The light fell on the body of her friend, Lady Thinlómien. With a few quick steps she was with her and she knew she couldn't do anything to save her friend. So she only reached for the dead woman's boot and to her staisfaction, she noticed her friend had done as she had told her to do and hidden a dagger there. They had not dared to search the Lady as they had searched the Hunter herself and all the others. Gently, the Hunter closed her friend's eyes and kissed the dagger. "You will revenge," she whispered. Then she hid it in her own boot.

"Dawn is here," she said loudly. "And our courageous Lady is no more. It's time to wake up and find the culprits. I, for one, would have a word with them."

Slowly, the Elves opened their eyes to see it was not pitch dark anymore, only dark. For a while they saw the vague shape of a tall Elf standing in amidst the shadows but soon she had disappeared and blended with the rest of them. All the Elves huddled together and after a moment of quiet, one of them spoke.

~*~

Day1 has started! Wolves, stop PMing. Hunter, you may send a pick any time you want. Everybody, you may talk on this thread now.

The Dead
Thinlómien (mod) - murdered in cold blood on Night1

The Living
Green - veteran hunter with a striking resemblance to an opossum
Boromir - incompetent gatewarden
Eönwë - hunter
Glirdan - local batty scholar
Inziladun - weaponsmith
Legate - jeweller with an affinity to the colour white
Loslote - young tag-along girl with frizzy hair
Nerwen - young and impatient hunter who makes animal statues of wood and likes the colour green
Nogrod - narcoleptic master-hunter
Ozban - young and naive hunter and admirer of Finrod Felagund
Pitch - furrier
Shastanis - orphan solitary hunter who moves silently, likes blue and has a pet snake
Skip - an admirer of Finduilas's
Wilwarin - hunter

[Nogrod]

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

Oh, no, you say? Well, let's talk then. Although it looks like a basic set up by Sauron, and so most of the dynamics-issues will be quite down-to-earth and familiar from our previous training-sessions.

So let's talk. After I finish my little C.S.I. nap... *falls down in narcolepsy*

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

You had me at "let's get uncloaked"...now what?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

How can we hope to defeat this terrible darkness, which douses all light, even if Lady Thinlómien could not? But we shall not let the darkness prevail, at least! As long as there is light in the world outside, as long as there is beauty of skill, creation and art, we have to stand against those soulless beasts in our midst. Even if we don't have the victory against the Dark One, we will not give up hope!

It is true what Nogrod said here, that we are lucky for no drastic twists which sometimes come from the minds of those who set-up such schemes as the one we have gotten ourselves into... If there is anything that troubles me now, it is the selection of people, because basically all of you, my friends, are the ones I consider of the most bold and clever, in one way or another, and I would not like any of you to be on the side of evil...

Nonetheless... to stir some discussion... there is only one "unusual" thing at most (or slightly unusual, as it mostly appears in such settings anyway, but sometimes not), and that is the traitor in our midst... who, although hasn't been mentioned in the nightly events, is among us, as is said elsewhere... generally I do not deem such person dangerous (here a possible stir for discussion?) by itself, but a thing to consider for example if any of our Gifted friends (especially the Seer) decided to come out, it is quite likely that e.g. this traitor - Cobbler - might do lots of things to create trouble, and one of these things is pretending to be a Seer or something like that (as it has happened many times in the past)... so if this happened, the contested Seer or whoever should be careful about it and judge for him/herself whether it is wise to contest the fake-Seer's claim or not at that point... I mean, I am not so worried about Cobbler revealing in such a way, because if he/she fakes a Seer and says "X is a wolf, lynch him" and we listen to him/her, then soon we will know whether he/she is lying or not...

I am saying, I believe, quite obvious, or easily recognisable things, but then, it is not so obvious, and just in case... and also, like I said, it's Day 1. We don't have any lead to start with, we should stir some discussion. So let's do it, so that by the end of the Day we can have some idea whom to vote...

We can, of course, discuss anything and I hope this will only be one pinch which will help this not to be a quiet and random Day 1.

I am going to hang around with you for a while yet, but I am probably soon going to join Nogrod in some sleep... nonetheless hope to see the discussion happening once I come back later on.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

As long as there is no uncloaking in the manner of Olórin in the West.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nonetheless... to stir some discussion... there is only one "unusual" thing at most (or slightly unusual, as it mostly appears in such settings anyway, but sometimes not), and that is the traitor in our midst... who, although hasn't been mentioned in the nightly events, is among us, as is said elsewhere... generally I do not deem such person dangerous (here a possible stir for discussion?)

Though this person acts only during the Day and isn't as dangerous as the foul wolves of Sauron, they shall certainly be aiding evil whenever they can. We must take care not to dismiss them as a lesser threat if they are identified.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

but a thing to consider for example if any of our Gifted friends (especially the Seer) decided to come out, it is quite likely that e.g. this traitor - Cobbler - might do lots of things to create trouble, and one of these things is pretending to be a Seer or something like that (as it has happened many times in the past)... so if this happened, the contested Seer or whoever should be careful about it and judge for him/herself whether it is wise to contest the fake-Seer's claim or not at that point... I mean, I am not so worried about Cobbler revealing in such a way, because if he/she fakes a Seer and says "X is a wolf, lynch him" and we listen to him/her, then soon we will know whether he/she is lying or not...

Such has ever been the case. It is for those Gifteds to guard themselves and their knowledge well, and not to be drawn out by the words of the false.

[Nogrod]

I was already letting my paranoic-self loose while listening to our Jeweler here saying how easy it would be to get rid of the cobbler - so something like a masterplan in the works from the get-go?

But as I went checking back into the rules to find out whether my idea was right and the cobbler doesn't know the identity of the wolves (which would mean a cobbler might falsely reveal and hit a wolf thus making us believe her/him for a moment - the problem being it could draw our seer into the open earlier s/he wanted), I actually stumbled on a more important issue I had forgotten.

The seer gets the identity of the cobbler this time for sure - so by playing the "revealment-card" the cobbler can at best distract us for one lynching (or another if the seer is really cold-blooded and thinks it wise in the general balance of the game), but s/he will be known to be the cobbler by the seer the next Night - which should hold the cobbler's willingness in check to try and meddle in that way...

It doesn't take away the chance the cobbler might fool us for one Day, but it will sure mean the cobbler will ensure s/he will walk to the gallows pretty soon if s/he's trying to pull out that kind of trick. I mean in a basic scenario, an ordinary elf could try to do the trick to save the seer and we'd be insecure if the seer just later said s/he is "an innocent". But in this game the cobbler will be seen as a cobbler by the seer.

So in the end I tend to agree with our Jeweler of Amon Lanc that the cobbler isn't that much of a threat (until the end of the game of course, if alive that is) - or someone we should try to go for in the first Days as our main target. So let's keep the wolves as our main targets and not get distracted with the cobbler-talk. I'm okay with lynching the cobbler anytime we have good reasons to believe someone is the cobbler and we have no idea who the wolves are - but on other situations, like having some credible suspicions on wolvery, especially early in the game, let's stick to hunting the wolves.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The seer gets the identity of the cobbler this time for sure - so by playing the "revealment-card" the cobbler can at best distract us for one lynching (or another if the seer is really cold-blooded and thinks it wise in the general balance of the game), but s/he will be known to be the cobbler by the seer the next Night - which should hold the cobbler's willingness in check to try and meddle in that way...

It doesn't take away the chance the cobbler might fool us for one Day, but it will sure mean the cobbler will ensure s/he will walk to the gallows pretty soon if s/he's trying to pull out that kind of trick. I mean in a basic scenario, an ordinary elf could try to do the trick to save the seer and we'd be insecure if the seer just later said s/he is "an innocent". But in this game the cobbler will be seen as a cobbler by the seer.

That is indeed true! Well good to have realised that. This way, the cobbler-threat gets a lot smaller, although still of course we should not dismiss it... but yes, well. This also answers dear our dear Pitchfurrier's doubts (at least those concerning Cobblers - I definitely share his concerns about the uncloaking plan!)... my concern was just general, knowing such things might occur. Of course, if a fake-Gifted proved to be a nuisance, there would have been the need for radical turn, but fortunately indeed, the Seer can always dream of him/her. Even if it meant losing a Night of when he/she could have dreamed of a real Wolf - but I think it would depend on the situation whether it's affordable or not, and anyway, a person going around and saying he or she is the Seer should not be left unchecked, just for the sake of the village. And he/she might even be a Wolf him/herself, and not just a Cobbler (that is also one very, very important point to bear in mind!). Anyway, I guess the conclusion is: if somebody comes out claiming that he or she is something and is not, then the real person should not be too hasty, hum hom, as one of my very, very, very old friends used to say...

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

Indeed, I marvel at your audacity in suggesting such a thing, Master Nogrod. Holy Elbereth, there are ladies among us, and one of them a young maiden! Have you no decency?

Originally Posted by Legate

If there is anything that troubles me now, it is the selection of people, because basically all of you, my friends, are the ones I consider of the most bold and clever, in one way or another, and I would not like any of you to be on the side of evil...

Flattery will get you nowhere.

As for the matter of fake reveals which you broach there, I have yet to witness such an attempt being made successfully, but historical chronicles do mention precedences. Now as you are no doubt aware, the best way for such a fake claimant to fool us would be to sacrifice a real wolf in order to gain our trust, and the cobbler is in no position to do that, even if they were willing to, being as much in the dark as to the wolves' identity as we are. They might, of course, get a wolf lynched by mistake, deeming said wolf innocent, but then that would ill save the evil side. Therefore I don't think the danger of a cobbler fake-revealing very high, considering all sides. A wolf doing it, however, would be quite a different matter, as they could use their knowledge of who is furry and who isn't to lend credibility to their pretended dreams.

On the other hand, the cobbler, or a wolf, might still risk it in the hope to thus draw out the true Seer for the wolves to kill, as you seem to be considering here:

Originally Posted by Legate

so if this happened, the contested Seer or whoever should be careful about it and judge for him/herself whether it is wise to contest the fake-Seer's claim or not at that point...

This is a two-edged blade. A false claim that is uncontested for too long and not disproven by mislynchings might be believed over a delayed counter-reveal... I think there are precedences to that in the histories, too. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and in the meantime I trust in the wisdom of our
Seer to handle these matters without our prompting.

(x-ed with Zil and Nogrod)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

I am saying, I believe, quite obvious, or easily recognisable things, but then, it is not so obvious, and just in case... and also, like I said, it's Day 1. We don't have any lead to start with, we should stir some discussion. So let's do it, so that by the end of the Day we can have some idea whom to vote...

It's true, you are, and this very trait is what led me to think you evil when last we met. However, given that you've said that you're stirring up the rest of us here... I believe I'm okay with you, for now, Legate.

In other news, I'm finding something slightly off about Pitch. He's only made one post thus far, but as I read it there were points at which I felt he was being awfully... well, the pun is inevitable... agreeable.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Right on spot Pitch. I paused at that while reading but got carried away by the cobbler-speculation... (but it did feed to my paranoia at the first read) The wolves will try to be nice and friendly. The innocents will be brutal and openly attacking people (hopefully). The wolves would love "friendliness-based lottery" of votes, while we innocents need to find out who the honey-tongued villains are.

Although I'm not too sure that quote merits as a reason to suspect Legate as you could read it as an IC comment as well.

Originally Posted by Pitchie

As for the matter of fake reveals which you broach there, I have yet to witness such an attempt being made successfully, but historical chronicles do mention precedences.

It depends on what is the definition of a "succesful false reveal". The cobblers - or wolves - doing a false reveal tend to die rather quick, but sometimes they have carried the game by that one or two Day delay they manage to create... So it is a real possibility, and a real threat.

Originally Posted by Pitchie

But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and in the meantime I trust in the wisdom of our Seer to handle these matters without our prompting.

As I said earlier, let's go for any signs of wolvery for now, toDay, toMorrow... if we get a good hunch on a cobbler and if we are totally baffled with the wolves, let's then try to lynch the cobbler (it might be a wolf trying to act like a cobbler as well, not an unheard of scenario either).

It is good to note all suspicious acting - but that of the gifteds (there are such a number of sad examples). The gifteds should stay calm...

EDIT: X'd with Legate & Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Indeed, I marvel at your audacity in suggesting such a thing, Master Nogrod. Holy Elbereth, there are ladies among us, and one of them a young maiden! Have you no decency?


Flattery will get you nowhere.

As for the matter of fake reveals which you broach there, I have yet to witness such an attempt being made successfully, but historical chronicles do mention precedences. Now as you are no doubt aware, the best way for such a fake claimant to fool us would be to sacrifice a real wolf in order to gain our trust, and the cobbler is in no position to do that, even if they were willing to, being as much in the dark as to the wolves' identity as we are. They might, of course, get a wolf lynched by mistake, deeming said wolf innocent, but then that would ill save the evil side. Therefore I don't think the danger of a cobbler fake-revealing very high, considering all sides. A wolf doing it, however, would be quite a different matter, as they could use their knowledge of who is furry and who isn't to lend credibility to their pretended dreams.

On the other hand, the cobbler, or a wolf, might still risk it in the hope to thus draw out the true Seer for the wolves to kill, as you seem to be considering here:

This is a two-edged blade. A false claim that is uncontested for too long and not disproven by mislynchings might be believed over a delayed counter-reveal... I think there are precedences to that in the histories, too. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and in the meantime I trust in the wisdom of our
Seer to handle these matters without our prompting.

(x-ed with Zil and Nogrod)

Here you are, Pitch. Bolding mine. I've noticed several other points ("Thanks for the advice" sticks out most noticably) as I've read the Day, as well.

I have to vote in a few minutes. I'd prefer not to turn this into Shasta vs. Lottie, but I will if I have to.

[Thinlómien]

Once again, the three tormented souls slipped away to conspire in the silent darkness. The coward sat long awake, wishing she could see or hear something and mortally afraid. Then she too fell asleep. The Hunter slept with her dagger at hand, and the Ranger left her place quietly, wrapped in the cloak she had woven out of her hair. When people had gone to sleep, she had memorised where one of them had laid down and now she crept to him. She could hear his steady breathing: he was already asleep. With a small smile on her lips, she draped her cloak lightly around him. He would be safe tonight, she would take care of that. She sat down and would have watched him sleep if she had only been able to see anything in the pitch dark.

Hours passed, and her concentration started to fail. She was tired. When she was just about to doze off, she heard the barely noticable steps of something big and soft-footed. Suddenly she was all alert. She could hear sniffing noises very close to her and then, the yelp of a scared animal.

"There is something here," she heard an uncertain voice say, definitely Elvish but wolvishly distorted. She couldn't recognise it although it did sound familiar.
"Oh just get on with it and kill him," another voice said, similar to the first one.
"I don't want to. There's some strange power that scares me," the first voice said, defiant.
The Ranger heard two more sets of soft wolf-paws approach. She kept still, hoping her magic would conceal her as well as it protected the sleeping one.
Sniffing sounds. "Enchantments of the West," a third voice said, one that had not spoken before. There was fear in his voice.
"There is some power against us we haven't foreseen," the first voice said, and edge of despair in it.
"You are right..." the second voice said grudgingly. "Let's sleep on it, I do not dare touch this one tonight."

The soft sound of the paws moved away. In the dark, the Ranger smiled. She had scared them away. For a while more, she sat there, then she gently took her cloak from the Elf who was still sleeping, blissfully unaware his life had been within a hair's breadth from being taken to him tonight. Quietly, she resumed her sleeping place by the walls of the pit and had a few hours of sleep before dawn.


~*~


The Dead
Thinlómien (mod) - murdered in cold blood on Night1
Shastanis (seer) - cast to the pit in the pit on Day1

The Living
Green - veteran hunter with a striking resemblance to an opossum
Boromir - incompetent gatewarden
Eönwë - hunter
Glirdan - local batty scholar
Inziladun - weaponsmith
Legate - jeweller with an affinity to the colour white
Loslote - young tag-along girl with frizzy hair
Nerwen - young and impatient hunter who makes animal statues of wood and likes the colour green
Nogrod - narcoleptic master-hunter
Ozban - young and naive hunter and admirer of Finrod Felagund
Pitch - furrier
Skip - an admirer of Finduilas's
Wilwarin - hunter


Day2 has stated. Wolves, stop PMing. Hunter, you may change your pick if you wish. Everybody, you may talk now.

[Boromir88]

At least some good bit of news in that mess of a voting yesterday. *raises spear in toast to the Ranger*

[Nogrod]

Well, some justice! It's not so dark anymore.

And if the ranger keeps up that work s/he can take the task of our seer in the Days to come! One innocent revealed already.

Oh, sorry, my C.S.I narcolepsy again (it's a commercial break right now). Back soonish...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Great thing, at least this! I must say the yesterDay's complete failure was not very much boosting the hope, but a Night-save is good. I think this had hindered the Wolves quite a lot. Either they have to go for the same person next Night, or just go for somebody else, risking that the same thing might happen again. Ha! I can only think of one downside for the lack of Night-kill: we cannot make any conclusions from it. But I think this is certainly better than a Night-kill: we have basically one Day more.

So about yesterDay... I am still disappointed that by the time the real conversation started, I wasn't able to be around very much, and unfortunately, it will be similar toDay (I will have to vote early - see the admin thread), though I hope that the discussion at least has already started yesterDay so now it will already be in flow while I am here...

The worst thing about the Seer-lynch yesterDay is that it was totally random (obviously, as half of village voted for him), so basically we don't even have any clear lead from the lynch. I think I should look at the voting tally, or somebody should make it (I think Glirdy made one yesterDay). If there are people I am suspicious about, they are especially among the "throwaway voters". Of course, once there was basically unisono lynch, there wasn't much of a thing to do even for an innocent who disagreed: you could either join the mob or just cast your vote elsewhere. From the top of my head, I must say that wilwa seemed okay to me from those people who voted randomly - she sounded genuinely frustrated, while Ozban sort of stood out as the negative example - he voted while there was no real chance of lynching me, and was doing it in the sort of "normal" way, as if his vote could still accomplish something, but most of all with the sort of "alibistic" style the Wolves sometimes have, saying "my hands are clean from the blood of this one". Boro could be either way. Eönwë, who appeared like few minutes before DL and started contemplating on whom to vote, might have been genuine - seems he had a lot to catch up with.

I think there definitely was at least one Wolf among the Shasta-voters, trying to hide in the crowd (unless it was even Lottie who started it, for example). I don't like especially Glirdan and Skip there, their votes are in the sort of convinient place: somewhere in the middle, neither initiators, but still not just the "whatever random last nails to the coffin at the time when it doesn't matter anymore". I have been somewhat suspicious of those two already yesterDay, skip at least was the kind of a person who seemed to echo a lot of thoughts others said without adding much of his own. There was something that unnerved me about Glirdy, but I have to re-read his posts again, especially what he had said about the Lottie-Shasta thing.

And I am also not quite comfortable with Nogrod's vote - in fact, like I said yesterDay, I am not entirely comfortable with him in general - he seems to me a bit more calculative than he usually is as an innocent. Like, when he said "I suspect Shasta, and although I don't like bandwaggons, I will vote him" - that sounded a bit fake. I would have expected the innocent Nogrod to be sort of more, hmm, self-reflective, like, to ask himself: "Oh really? Is it right that I suspect him if all the village wants to lynch him?" And not to just shrug it like this. I would like to take a look at when he first started to suspect Shasta...

Okay, so now on to do it And on to see if people post...

EDIT: x-ed with people. But if people post something, I meant...

[Boromir88]

If I know Shasta he would have left at least one clue for us to the one dream he had. When he was the ranger he always left behind clues to his protections. Now the problem is just finding it.

[Pitchwife]

Yep, go Ranger! And ouch for the lynch.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If I know Shasta he would have left at least one clue for us to the one dream he had. When he was the ranger he always left behind clues to his protections. Now the problem is just finding it.

Unless I'm overlooking something, he didn't talk about or suspect anybody very much except for myself (for reasons which baffle me more than ever now that his role is known), Lottie (defending himself against her) and Greenie (for saying Lottie sounded genuine). Apart from that, he was okay with Nerwen, disagreed with Legate about the cobbler and replied to you about past fake-reveals (the latter more banter than anything else). Nothing that sticks out as a Seer hint to me, so it seems most likely to me he'd dreamed an innocent (possibly Nerwen?) - unless you think he'd dreamed a Pitchwolf and masked the dream behind that bogus case he made against me; which I know he didn't, but obviously I can't prove it.

Speaking of hints, I've got a question for skip:

Originally Posted by skip #64

As it stands I might vote Shasta toDay for reasons I'd rather not disclose at this point...

Care to disclose them now, and explain what this was about? For if it wasn't a fake Seer hint (and implying you might have dreamed a Shastawolf) I don't know what it was.

[Ozban]

Legate I have been voting in synch with my conscience. Eventhough my vote can't accomplish anything, I won't hide in the crowd, I'm not such a hypocrite. I'm not afraid to speak up and fight for what i believe.

As for the ranger, Te Saluto!

And cause everything is said,
Oz retires to his bed.

Good night, fellow corpses.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If I know Shasta he would have left at least one clue for us to the one dream he had. When he was the ranger he always left behind clues to his protections. Now the problem is just finding it.

You can try, if you wish. I didn't spot anything this far, at least on first sight; though I am basically rereading the thread now so there is lot of time still...

Originally Posted by Ozban

Legate I have been voting in synch with my conscience. Eventhough my vote can't accomplish anything, I won't hide in the crowd, I'm not such a hypocrite. I'm not afraid to speak up and fight for what i believe.

Fair enough. Of course if people vote like that, it is okay. But Wolves do that too, or a certain kind of them, if they want to seem "noble". I have no problem imagining you as one of that sort - also given that you have never suspected Shasta and Lottie in the first place, not by the slightest bit. It has two edges - you can be either just really having your own mind and seeing things correctly from the very beginning, in that case, fine. But it can also be that you knew they were innocent - because you are not innocent yourself. I don't have any 100% suspicion about you or anything like that, but of the non-Shasta votes, yours is one that looks the most suspicious to me. So I will be watching you carefully.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You can try, if you wish. I didn't spot anything this far, at least on first sight; though I am basically rereading the thread now so there is lot of time still...

Well my only reaction so far was it doesn't look good for Pitch.

Post 10.

It's true, you are, and this very trait is what led me to think you evil when last we met. However, given that you've said that you're stirring up the rest of us here... I believe I'm okay with you, for now, Legate.

"I believe I'm ok" and "for now" doesn't sound like a seer-dream on Legate. Just an innocent stating a general innocent-vibe about someone.

However same post...

In other news, I'm finding something slightly off about Pitch. He's only made one post thus far, but as I read it there were points at which I felt he was being awfully... well, the pun is inevitable... agreeable.

Now that's odd, he's quick to point out Pitch's only post and then be "slightly off" about him for being...well Pitch.

His next few posts one is a joke to me about a prior game and then clarifying the hunter role with Wilwa. And entirely agreeing with Nerwen (disagreeing with Legate) about the cobbler business. Nothing seems seer hinty to me.

Post 31.

Lottie - That's silly. I clarified a rule for Wilwa. What about that should be worrying? I'll give you a hint - the answer's 'nothing'. And as for being 'nonconfrontational' - I was the first to evidence actual suspicion of a specific person (Pitch, to be precise), so I don't really know where you're getting 'nonconfrontational' from.

The response is to Lottie, but he also points out that he was the first to point any actual suspicion towards anyone and remarks again that the person was Pitch. So I hardly think his Post 10 when he says Pitch was "slightly off" was a bantering, joke suspicion.

Post 33.

In any case, I'm least okay with Pitch at the moment and most okay with Nerwen (mostly for her views on the cobbler). I'm going to try and sleep now - although I don't hold out too much hope considering the dark dankness of this cell.

Least ok with Pitch, most ok with Nerwen. The thing about this post is he provides a reason for being most ok with Nerwen, and continues to repeat suspicion on Pitch for no stated reason.

Post 46.

Not really liking Greenie at the moment - mostly for saying Lottie 'feels genuine' when I already pointed out her reasons for suspecting me are bunk.

This would seem to point the possible dream to Lottie and not to Greenie. Greenie's kind of the middle person who got her head stuck into a curfluffle, because Shasta's reasons for not liking Greenie were for what Greenie said about Lottie.

Although the Lottie dream doesn't seem all that probable because Shasta seemed more annoyed that she was suspecting him. Doesn't look much like a dream for Lottie.

Post 58. He quotes a long post from Pitch only to say...

Here you are, Pitch. Bolding mine. I've noticed several other points ("Thanks for the advice" sticks out most noticably) as I've read the Day, as well.

I have to vote in a few minutes. I'd prefer not to turn this into Shasta vs. Lottie, but I will if I have to.

Here again it doesn't seemed like his dream was of Lottie, because he specifically says he doesn't want this to turn into "Shasta vs. Lottie." The "I will if I have to" was probably more that he would of course want to save himself if it came to that.

Post 60.

++Pitch

I don't like Lottie's contrived reasons to vote for me, but she more often contrives reasons to vote when she's innocent, so I'll leave her alone today. Pitch sticks out as more suspicious to me today - agreeable, doesn't touch on more than the obvious topic of the cobbler, etc.

Make of it what you will, but he seemed stuck on suspicions for Pitch for the entire day. Where Greenie and Lottie he seemed more annoyed with and not particularly suspicious of. And none of the people he said he "liked" didn't seem like very confident "likes" at the time.

Edit: crossed with Pitch. But dinner time for me shall be back late late tonight.

[Nogrod]

It seems we're getting into this old discussion I haven't seen in a long time. So what is the right thing to do when the vote is more or less clear? Do you go with whom you suspect the most plain and simple whatever the result is going to be ("not being a hypocrite" even if it means that someone whom you think is more innocent than others facing the gallows in real terms will die - but you keep your own posture of integrity) or do you choose from those who are near the chopping block and pick the one you're most suspicious of - even if it isn't your number one suspect - or try to drive the lynch to save the one you think the most innocent of the probable lynchees?

Or, which is even better a question: who would like to pose as someone who is right and self-assuredly denying to take part in the lynching of an innocent? Well, only those who know the one that is going to be lynched in fact is an innocent! I do suspect Boro heavily on his last minute declaration of moral highground - and to a slightly lesser degree also Steve (what Legate said him seemingly being in a hurry). Ozban I'm not so sure about: an idealistic newbie or a calculating wolf? I'd lean towards the former at the moment.

And btw. Legate: I'm quite ready to admit that I did suspect Shasta and voting him with what information I had then was the most reasonable thing to do, wagon or not. I said that I don't like bandwagons, but if the wagoned one is one of the few I'd feel even little confidence in voting for, then I'll vote thus.

And anyway, if half the village votes for someone, then it isn't quite so random Legate seems to think (or would like us to think?). Even if all the wolves were included (which I doubt), it would still leave at least four innocents thinking him suspicious - most probably five or even six (I agree at least one wolf must have bite the chance). So what were you aiming at Legate claiming that randomness? You can't say Shasta wasn't looking suspicious with his odd to and fro with Lottie and "out of the blue" suspicions (made incredibly poorly) on Pitch?

Okay, needs to take a short break... too much coming fore puzzling my mind.

EDIT: x'd with many

[Eönwë]

Ok, well, I'm still finishing to read, but...

Ouch. Seer. Dead. (And I won't take the whole "I-told-you-so" approach, because my non-vote yesterDay was hardly better)

And I don't really think that the Ranger save, however good it was (and let me say here "Good work, Ranger") is really worth the seer, so I disagree with those people in the beginning of the Day who made it sound like that. On the bright side though, it does buy us a Day, so I'm not saying that it's not a reason to celebrate.

Anyway...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

*Begins to uncl-* Oh, was that a no? Sorry.



But to more serious business now.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I do suspect Boro heavily on his last minute declaration of moral highground - and to a slightly lesser degree also Steve (what Legate said him seemingly being in a hurry).

Well I had two options:

1. Join in the Shasta-waggon, which I didn't agree with (he just didn't seem any guiltier than he usually does on Day 1).
2. Cast a throwaway vote based on no good reasons, as I hadn't been around for most of the Day.

So I chose option 3: none of the above.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Possibly for the reason he said: Nerwen agreed with him about the Cobbler.

Is that really a good enough reason? Especially for a Seer. Then again, you could say the same about Pitch, which wasn't really that convincing.


More to come...

[skip spence]

Oh dear. Has the Power of the Lord of Waters withdrawn from the Great River that flows beside this accursed isle at last? We have slain the one who could've been most useful for all of us!

But onwards, forwards!

I gotta sleep now but two things I leave for you to discuss if you will.

Firstly, the reason I voted Shasta was not so much his behaviour but rather Lottie's very flimsy accusation. It was so off I actually felt that she might've known something we did not. I felt that there was a distinct possibility that she was the Seer and that she dreamt of a Shasta-wolf, and as his subsequent reaction did not console me that was the best I could come up with at that point. A mistake, obviously.

But Lottie, I think you should explain to us again why you found Shasta suspicious.

Another thing. I suppose that had Shasta dreamed an innocent the first Night we'd find no clues as to who that was. But if he did dream a wolf, wouldn't he have left something for us should he chance to die? And Shasta's main suspect seem to have been Pitch. Could he have dreamed of him?


Aurë entuluva!

Edit: Xed with a few people including Pitch whose question I've answered.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by skip

Firstly, the reason I voted Shasta was not so much his behaviour but rather Lottie's very flimsy accusation. It was so off I actually felt that she might've known something we did not. I felt that there was a distinct possibility that she was the Seer and that she dreamt of a Shasta-wolf, and as his subsequent reaction did not console me that was the best I could come up with at that point. A mistake, obviously.

OK then, that makes sense... especially as I had the same idea at the time, although her repeated disclaimers about having no proof, possibly being mistaken etc. made me doubt it - but then again, these could have been meant to keep the wolves from guessing her. Then, when you wrote those mysterious lines, I thought it could be you, or at least it was probably one of you two... and together, we got the real Seer lynched in the process. Bigtime failure.

[Nerwen]

Here's something from early in the Day that I meant to comment on.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Firstly, the reason I voted Shasta was not so much his behaviour but rather Lottie's very flimsy accusation. It was so off I actually felt that she might've known something we did not.

Fair enough, and the point did occur to me too– though I rejected it when she started saying "but I could be wrong". However, why didn't Shasta's flimsy accusation of Pitch also strike you as Seerish?