Did Rohan annex Enedwaith in the Fourth Age ? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Mouth of Sauron · 06-23-2010, 07:29 AM

I seem to recall reading in one or two places that Enedwaith eventually became part of Rohan in the Fourth Age.

Has anyone got information about this please ?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 06-23-2010, 04:42 PM

I am not aware of any such thing. When I read this, I just checked Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth (which is generally rather trustworthy) and it shows Rohan on the Fourth Age map in its original borders (westwards only between Isen and Adorn). Enedwaith, as well as Minhiriath and everything between Arnor and Gondor which is not Rohan belongs to the renewed kingdom. Even if I did not trust the map itself, there is a referrence to a quote from LotR that Elessar "renewed the kingdom in its original borders" - which means Enedwaith and Minhiriath too. It makes sense: one would certainly prefer to have an unbroken link between Arnor and Gondor, even if the breaking point was an allied kingdom; it is still better if you can pass still only within your own borders. So I think not. Also remember the talk of Butterbur to Gandalf, where he seemed displeased at the idea of some random folks coming and rebuilding Fornost etc., and also the southern parts - and Gandalf replied to that that king's messengers will be coming from the south, which implies that all the lands there will belong to the King.

The Mouth of Sauron · 06-23-2010, 05:19 PM

Since I posted I've found this : -

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Enedwaith

Which at the bottom states that Rohan DID absorb Enedwaith early in the Fourth Age. I agree it runs counter to general understanding of Aragorn establishing the Reunited Kingdom.

garm · 06-26-2010, 03:08 PM

In general, I mistrust wiki (any wiki) as a 'source' for anything to do with Tolkien. There's a tendency to make things up!

I've just looked up 'Enedwaith' in the Hammond-Scull; in addition to refs. from LotR, there are also references to Unfinished tales, and to Tolkien's essay 'The Rivers and Beacon-Hills of Gondor'. There's nothing in Hammond and Scull to suggest that the Rohirrim annexed Enedwaith, so as the author of the Wiki article doesn't see fit to say where this info comes from, I'd be inclined to think that he/she made it up.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 06-27-2010, 12:09 PM

Indeed. Always check the sources! That's not to say it can't be true - but I suggest looking for the real quotes from Tolkien himself which would support this. In general, like said above, I would not expect the annexation to happen. Maybe looking into the Appendices could bring some light... that's what I would expect. I looked into them only briefly and I didn't find anything in the part about Rohan (Appendix A II), only this, which would actually point to the contrary:

Quote:

In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Éomer the gift of Cirion, and Éomer took again the Oath of Eorl.

So, here we go. "Rohan only" means, well, Rohan only

and Enedwaith would be the part of the "reams of old", at least in the times of greatest might of the heirs of Elendil.

Findegil · 06-28-2010, 03:01 AM

I do not have my books with me, but I know were to search, since I rember that statment. It is in one of the earlier manuskripts for the appendixes. So look into volume 12 of 'The History of Middle-Earth'. The Index might be handy looking for 'Enedwaith'. Since it did not make it to the final text, you can consider it as a skipt idea but I am not quiet sure that the final text does force us to that.

Respectfuly
Findegil

06-23-2010, 07:29 AM	#1
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	Did Rohan annex Enedwaith in the Fourth Age ? I seem to recall reading in one or two places that Enedwaith eventually became part of Rohan in the Fourth Age. Has anyone got information about this please ?

06-23-2010, 04:42 PM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	I am not aware of any such thing. When I read this, I just checked Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth (which is generally rather trustworthy) and it shows Rohan on the Fourth Age map in its original borders (westwards only between Isen and Adorn). Enedwaith, as well as Minhiriath and everything between Arnor and Gondor which is not Rohan belongs to the renewed kingdom. Even if I did not trust the map itself, there is a referrence to a quote from LotR that Elessar "renewed the kingdom in its original borders" - which means Enedwaith and Minhiriath too. It makes sense: one would certainly prefer to have an unbroken link between Arnor and Gondor, even if the breaking point was an allied kingdom; it is still better if you can pass still only within your own borders. So I think not. Also remember the talk of Butterbur to Gandalf, where he seemed displeased at the idea of some random folks coming and rebuilding Fornost etc., and also the southern parts - and Gandalf replied to that that king's messengers will be coming from the south, which implies that all the lands there will belong to the King. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

06-23-2010, 05:19 PM	#3
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	Since I posted I've found this : - http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Enedwaith Which at the bottom states that Rohan DID absorb Enedwaith early in the Fourth Age. I agree it runs counter to general understanding of Aragorn establishing the Reunited Kingdom.

06-26-2010, 03:08 PM	#4
garm Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 22	In general, I mistrust wiki (any wiki) as a 'source' for anything to do with Tolkien. There's a tendency to make things up! I've just looked up 'Enedwaith' in the Hammond-Scull; in addition to refs. from LotR, there are also references to Unfinished tales, and to Tolkien's essay 'The Rivers and Beacon-Hills of Gondor'. There's nothing in Hammond and Scull to suggest that the Rohirrim annexed Enedwaith, so as the author of the Wiki article doesn't see fit to say where this info comes from, I'd be inclined to think that he/she made it up.

06-28-2010, 03:01 AM	#6
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I do not have my books with me, but I know were to search, since I rember that statment. It is in one of the earlier manuskripts for the appendixes. So look into volume 12 of 'The History of Middle-Earth'. The Index might be handy looking for 'Enedwaith'. Since it did not make it to the final text, you can consider it as a skipt idea but I am not quiet sure that the final text does force us to that. Respectfuly Findegil