Sauron vs. Huan = Thetis vs. Peleus?

[Iarwain]

I was reading Plato's The Republic last night, and Socrates was rambling about how certain aspects of Athenian mythology were not suitable for the young mind. He gave several examples, but one caught my attention specifically. I read in the footnotes that Thetis was a nymph that refused to wed Peleus until he proved himself by wrestling her as she shifts shapes and becomes various forms. Socrates continues by talking about how the suggestion of the gods changing shape is blasphemy (to some degree) because of their divinity. But anyway, this particular story caught me by its extraordinary similarity to Huan's fight with the shape shifting Sauron, though the curcumstances were a bit different. Well, I just thought I'd share that, so that others can muse on it.

Ever wandering,
Iarwain

[Kuruharan]

It's certainly an original comparison. I personally doubt that the two are really related, but it is original.

(At least, it's new to me... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe it would be a bit off a stretch to compare the battle of Wolf-Sauron and Huan to the Greek tale of Thetis and Peleus. Peleus and Thetis is a tale with a great deal of sexual symbolism (as were many of the tales of Greco-Roman mythology) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]. I shudder at the thought that the battle of Sauron and Huan could have any sexual connotations [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] . Aside from that, the stories are only vaguely similar (Thetis is a shapeshifter, so is Sauron, etc.) It is a very interesting idea, Iarwain [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] but I do not think there is a direct link. As with all prominent mythology, however, I am sure that Professor Tolkien has read this story and that this type of mythology greatly influenced his writing.

[Birdland]

I don't think it's too much of a stretch. I'm sure Tolkien had read his Republic - and a good plot twist is a good plot twist.

I am a little confused about Plato's priorities. He doubts the suitablity of the tale for children because of a shape-shifting deity, and not because a man mud wrestles a nymph?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well, those ancient Greeks... they didn't exactly prioritise properly in general though, did they?

[Finwe]

I agree with Lord of Angmar. The merest hint that the fight between Sauron and Huan was anything related to sexuality just SCARES me. I'm sure Tolkien read his Republic and all, but just because two people fought each other in a duel, to gain entrance to a specific place (no pun intended for the Thetis/Peleus situation [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) is no reason to say that the earlier one influenced the later one.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Robert Graves, following Apollodorus, Homer and Hagias, gives us another example of a battle between hero and shape-changer.

On the way home from Troy, Menelaus' ships were caught in a storm raised by Athene, and those that survived were trapped in southern waters for eight years, unable to return. Eventually the Achaeans came to Pharos, where Menelaus met the nymph Eidothea, who advised him to capture her father, Proteus and force him to use his gift of prophecy.

Accordingly, Menelaus and his men disguised themselves in seal skins and waited until more of the creatures joined them. When Proteus came to sleep among them, Menelaus and his men seized and held him even though he changed into a lion, a serpent, a panther, a boar, running water and a tree, and eventually he told them what must be done to obtain a favourable wind.

It's certain that Tolkien heard both of these myths at a young age, and shape-changing wizards are common mythological fare in any case. I certainly couldn't help thinking of the various metamorphosing Greek deities when I read the scene between Sauron and Huan, and I don't think it unlikely that Tolkien drew some of his inspiration from them. An interesting point well raised.

On a partially related note, Tolkien and Graves held chairs at Oxford during the same era, and Tolkien gives an account of a meeting with his contemporary in one of his letters that sheds an interesting light on both men:

An amusing incident occurred in October, when I went as a courtesy, to hear the last lecture of this series of his given by the Professor of Poetry: Robert Graves (A remarkable creature, entertaining, likeable, odd, bonnet full of wild bees, half-German, half-Irish, very tall, must have looked like Siegfried/Sigurd in his youth, but an As$.) It was the most ludicrously bad lecture I have ever heard. After it he introduced me to a pleasant young woman who had attended it; well but quietly dressed, easy and agreeable, and we got on quite well. But Graves started to laugh; and he said 'it is obvious neither of you has ever heard of the other before'. Quite true, And I had not supposed that the lady would ever have heard of me. Her name was Ava Gardner, but it still meant nothing, till people more aware of the world informed me that she was a film-star of some magnitude, and that the press of pressmen and storm of flash-bulbs on the steps of the Schools were not directed at Graves (and cert. not at me) but at her.

(Letter #267, to Michael Tolkien (9-10 Jan, 1965)

EDIT: Can it be true? Can the inspiration for this site and the subject of our discussions have fallen foul of the obscenity detector? To an Englishman, of course, the word in question is merely disparaging, not obscene.

[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Finwe]

I believe it is true. The British are a LOT more easy-going, why else do we love them so much?

[Iarwain]

In nearly any context, I woudn't consider the word to be profane. I wonder if the filters can be changed.

Iarwain

P.S. I forgot to comment on my own discussion. I'm sure that it wasn't a major influence, I merely noted it as a possible discussion and, dying to contribute (as always [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], and being sure that no such topic had ever been created before, I posted on it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

That's the problem with getting your obscenity detector set up by an American... culture clashes. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The word doesn't even have the same meaning.

[Turambar]

I was going to mention Menelaus and Proteus also. Squatter, did you ever wonder how Menelaus managed to hold on even when Proteus changed into running water ?

Quite a feat.

[Dancing_Hobbit]

it's kind of late to say this, as the descussion appears to be winding down, but there are a lot of myths about battles with shapechangers, and, given Tolkien's liking for mythology, i find it highly likely that the fight was inspired by one of the many. When i first read that scene i was strongly reminded of the battle between Proteus and Odysseus that occurs in the Odyssy.

by the way, Finwe, its nice to know we're loved [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's another good example, although I suspect that Menelaus and Odysseus battling Proteus are variations on the same myth.

This thread serves very well as a reminder that one should look further than the legends of the ancient North for Tolkien's inspirations. He received an excellent Classical education at King Edward's School in Birmingham, and he originally read Classics at Oxford before switching to a course that better suited his inclinations. Therefore these legends would have been, to paraphrase Henry V, as familiar in his mouth as household words.

It does intrigue me, O Master of Doom, that Menelaus managed to keep hold of running water. Perhaps the Achaeans had particularly watertight hands: timete Danaos si aquam ferentes.

[Finwe]

Perhaps Menelaus swallowed the water. That would form a particularly water-tight container, although I shudder to think how Proteus would have gotten out of THAT one! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]