Melian among the maia

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

It seems that Melian is a truly powerfu and wise maia, and maybe even more powerful than the Istari (?). The fact that she was able to fend off a highly empowered (thanks to the Two Trees saps and Varda's wells) Ungoliant, whose darkness strangled all of Valinor's inhabitants (including the valar themselves), is truly impressive... considering it took a host of Balrogs to fend her off of Melkor. Of course, when Ungoliant headed for Doriath, she could have been less powerful due to the Balrogs' earlier contest with her, hence why Melian was able to restrain her? Or perhaps she was still in her full might even when apporaching the Girdle.
This makes me speculate that if the tragedies that transpired in Doriath (resulting in its destruction) did not occur, Melian's Girdle could have indefinitely held off Morgoth's full power (Sauron, Ancalagon, Glaurung, Gothmog and other Balrogs, Trolls, Orcs, and evil men).

In addition, speculate how Melian ranks against other powerful Maia like Uinen, Ilmare, Arien, Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and Radaghast in terms of raw power (however you want to define that). Some posters have mentioned that Sauron and Melian are possible equals, but if that were so, he wouldn't have had any reservations about attacking Doriath. Or am I giving Melian too much credit against the might of Angband?

[EluThingol]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

It seems that Melian is a truly powerfu and wise maia, and maybe even more powerful than the Istari (?). The fact that she was able to fend off a highly empowered (thanks to the Two Trees saps and Varda's wells) Ungoliant, whose darkness strangled all of Valinor's inhabitants (including the valar themselves), is truly impressive... considering it took a host of Balrogs to fend her off of Melkor. Of course, when Ungoliant headed for Doriath, she could have been less powerful due to the Balrogs' earlier contest with her, hence why Melian was able to restrain her? Or perhaps she was still in her full might even when apporaching the Girdle.
This makes me speculate that if the tragedies that transpired in Doriath (resulting in its destruction) did not occur, Melian's Girdle could have indefinitely held off Morgoth's full power (Sauron, Ancalagon, Glaurung, Gothmog and other Balrogs, Trolls, Orcs, and evil men).

In addition, speculate how Melian ranks against other powerful Maia like Uinen, Ilmare, Arien, Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and Radaghast in terms of raw power (however you want to define that). Some posters have mentioned that Sauron and Melian are possible equals, but if that were so, he wouldn't have had any reservations about attacking Doriath. Or am I giving Melian too much credit against the might of Angband?

I do believe Melian was one of the most powerful of the Maia that lingered in Middle Earth. Arguably almost as strong as Sauron, being able to withstand him. But her power was in withstanding and protecting rather than assault, or creating things of power or leading armies.

Some of the less physical entities, such as Uinen, Ilmare, Osse, etc, Were probably just up there in power with MAnwe's herald, but they spent their powers in other ways. Sauron did work with his hands and lived himself in Middle Earth for so logn takng on a physical form similar to an Elf, and later on of a terrible lord, that he (and Melian and Gandalf) are of a different type of Maiar. More terrestrial, or more corporeal it seems. And alot of their power was spread out in different ways, over time, rather than on a single task in a single place like Uinen or the others.


Certainly top 10 greatest Maiar spirits though, of Arda in terms of powers and contribution to Arda

[Galadriel55]

I think that Melian's power is much greater than simply resisting Ungoliant shows. Consider this quote, found in both The Sil and COH:

Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who has been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.

Before this quote, I would look at Melian as a powerful person but not someone who really has or uses the full potential. This quote, on the other hand, is like an eye opener to Melian's true power. She doesn't only create a wall of disorientation around her kingdom or keep Ungoliant away, she also continuously defeats Morgoth in a mind battle!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would look at Melian as a powerful person but not someone who really has or uses the full potential. This quote, on the other hand, is like an eye opener to Melian's true power. She doesn't only create a wall of disorientation around her kingdom or keep Ungoliant away, she also continuously defeats Morgoth in a mind battle!

This to me is a very close parallel to the situation between Galadriel and Sauron in the Third Age.

Galadiel too had a forested "fortress", and continually frustrated the attempts of Sauron to mentally probe for weakness and information. Since Galadriel had been a confidant of Melian's, I guess she got a few pointers on resisting evil in the bargain.

[Aganzir]

It is beyond me why such a powerful Maia would use her powers to seduce Thingol of all people. Sheesh!

Anyway, if the gods would leave their business, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, and the fountains cease to flow when she sang in Lórien, she can't be a completely ordinary Maia.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It is beyond me why such a powerful Maia would use her powers to seduce Thingol of all people. Sheesh!

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation. Thingol just ran into her while she was doing her thing in the forest and he even walked up to her and took her hand. It was love at first sight for both of them, and first sight was sure long lasting, "they STOOD THUS while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew TALL and DARK before they spoke any word." [Sil, p. 58]

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that Melian's power is much greater than simply resisting Ungoliant shows. Consider this quote, found in both The Sil and COH:

Quote:

Before this quote, I would look at Melian as a powerful person but not someone who really has or uses the full potential. This quote, on the other hand, is like an eye opener to Melian's true power. She doesn't only create a wall of disorientation around her kingdom or keep Ungoliant away, she also continuously defeats Morgoth in a mind battle!

It seems to me that similar to Balrogs, who possessed right weapons to fight against Ungoliant, Melian was endowed with specific mental ability to penetrate Morgoth's thought and to prevent him from reading her own mind - despite the fact that his overall might was greater and he had many other capacities in which Melian could hardly compete (such as shaping landscapes). Still it seems she was very close to Sauron as one of the mightiest maiar.

There is also a feel that if a great power stayed in the same place for a long time in Tolkien's universe, it could achieve a tremendous level of control over the territory - some kind of symbiosis, so the place also contributed into the enhancement of the power. Valar in Aman, High Elves and Elrond with his Ring in Rivendell, Galadriel in Lorien, Sauron in Mordor, Saruman in Isengard, Balrog in Moria, Bombadil in his "country", Radagast in south Mirkwood and, may be even Gandalf in the Shire demonstrate such effect. Some disadvantage is that localising powers, a great spirit could often loose his/her interest and influence in everything beyond. Sauron and Gandalf, each in his own way, were able to overcome such limitations.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

It seems to me that similar to Balrogs, who possessed right weapons to fight against Ungoliant, Melian was endowed with specific mental ability to penetrate Morgoth's thought and to prevent him from reading her own mind - despite the fact that his overall might was greater and he had many other capacities in which Melian could hardly compete (such as shaping landscapes). Still it seems she was very close to Sauron as one of the mightiest maiar.

Again I see a parallel in Galadriel vs. Sauron: Good more easily comprehends evil, than the reverse. Melian and Galadriel gain a fair amount of understanding of their more innately powerful adversaries, while the latter remain relatively blind.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

There is also a feel that if a great power stayed in the same place for a long time in Tolkien's universe, it could achieve a tremendous level of control over the territory - some kind of symbiosis, so the place also contributed into the enhancement of the power. Valar in Aman, High Elves and Elrond with his Ring in Rivendell, Galadriel in Lorien, Sauron in Mordor, Saruman in Isengard, Balrog in Moria, Bombadil in his "country", Radagast in south Mirkwood and, may be even Gandalf in the Shire demonstrate such effect. Some disadvantage is that localising powers, a great spirit could often loose his/her interest and influence in everything beyond. Sauron and Gandalf, each in his own way, were able to overcome such limitations.

Though Gandalf took a special interest in the Shire, and visited it somewhat regularly, I don't think one can say it was any sort of "fortress" of his. The North in general was his province. The "power" in the area was clearly Bombadil, who took your theory of localization to its extreme. The Old Forest and the Barrow-downs certainly recognized him as what Goldberry called "the Master". Perhaps Bombadil was there indeed to safeguard the Shire in preparation for its future importance in conjunction with the Ring. Gandalf could have recognized that, and maybe that accounts for his visiting Tom after Sauron's defeat: the "rolling-stone" and the "moss-gatherer", two opposite cogs in a machine working for a common goal?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Again I see a parallel in Galadriel vs. Sauron: Good more easily comprehends evil, than the reverse. Melian and Galadriel gain a fair amount of understanding of their more innately powerful adversaries, while the latter remain relatively blind.

Given how often this is the case, it's interesting that at the highest level the opposite was true, by which I mean the case of Manwë in judgement of Melkor: "For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever." (The Silmarillion p.65-66)
Of course by a later time in the First Age Morgoth's ability to conceal his thoughts from others may have been diminished. However, considering that Manwë was "free from evil" does the insight of characters like Melian convey a reduced freedom from evil with a "know thine enemy" connotation? But I suppose another parallel with Galadriel might be useful; she knew evil but rejected it, and perhaps knowing evil was not always a bad thing when it came to fighting evil, as long as it didn't go too far (as in the case of Saruman). That would seem to fit with Professor Tolkien's recurring theme that evil ultimately contributes to good, that Arda Healed would be greater than Arda Unmarred for having been Marred.

[Yregwyn]

Remember when Huan had Sauron by the throat in sil? Luthian said to some extent that she would destroy his body so he would have to go as a spirit forever unless he gave her mastery of Minas Tirith. Not sure exact quote my book is at home and im at work. Just think if Melion was there instead of Luthien. Luthien for sure didnt have the power her mother had.