Did Maedhros kill Laughter? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Urwen · 04-27-2010, 12:23 AM

But wise were still concerned that Maedhros revealed his growing strength too early "Always some new evil might be born in Angband."

_________________________________

....for Evil breath came to Dor-Lomin...and when Turin rose, he asked for Lalaith...and when Morwen came, he said "I'm not sick anymore and I want to see Urwen;but why can't I call her Lalaith anymore?"
"Because Lalaith's dead and no more laughter is here." answered Morwen.

Really,did Maedhros kill Laughter?

Pitchwife · 04-27-2010, 11:33 AM

No, Morgoth did.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 04-27-2010, 12:59 PM

Indeed. I don't think that questions like that have much sense - it's like asking "Did Elrond kill Gandalf?" or something like that.

the phantom · 04-27-2010, 01:30 PM

So the base question is, if everyone had just given up and stopped opposing Morgoth, would he have let them live?

Given what Tolkien says about his nature in Morgoth's Ring- no. Morgoth wished to destroy all life. Ask the question about Sauron on the other hand- perhaps.

PrinceOfTheHalflings · 04-27-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the phantom

So the base question is, if everyone had just given up and stopped opposing Morgoth, would he have let them live?

Given what Tolkien says about his nature in Morgoth's Ring- no. Morgoth wished to destroy all life. Ask the question about Sauron on the other hand- perhaps.

Oh yes, Sauron would have been happy to have everyone as his slaves. Especially The Wise.

Urwen · 04-28-2010, 03:35 AM

No, Morgoth did.

Yes,but he would have no reason to send plague if Maedhros never formed his Union. Therefore, Maedhros is to be blamed for death of Lalaith.

Pitchwife · 04-27-2010, 01:31 PM

Or, in more words: the only way Maedhros could construably be blamed for Lalaith's death would be if by better timing his attacks he could have defeated Morgoth in time to prevent the ill wind and the plague being sent. But as Mandos made clear when the Noldor left Valinor, they never had a hope of overcoming Morgoth without the help of the Valar, no matter how great their prowess and courage and how cunning their strategies might be. So if anybody else than Morgoth is to blame, it would be the Valar for setting him free in the first place, and for taking so long to come to the help of the Eldar and Edain after his return to Middle-earth.

EDIT: x-ed with the phantom.

Galadriel · 07-21-2010, 04:31 AM

This is one of those incredibly pointless threads, where everyone knows (or thinks they know) the answer, because this topic has no definite beginning or end, and that is perhaps the very reason why people want to to ON debating about it, even though they know it will never reach an answer.

Er...did that make any sense? O.O

Eönwë · 07-21-2010, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel

This is one of those incredibly pointless threads, where everyone knows (or thinks they know) the answer, because this topic has no definite beginning or end, and that is perhaps the very reason why people want to to ON debating about it, even though they know it will never reach an answer.

People are debating the answer to this thread!?

Really? I think I must be missing something...

Blind Guardian · 07-21-2010, 09:01 AM

Did Maedhros kill Laughter? No she was hit by a Volts-Waggon Beatle!

the phantom · 07-21-2010, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

People are debating the answer to this thread!?

Really? I think I must be missing something...

No, everyone else is missing something, as you are quite right- the answer no longer requires any debate. I settled things once and for all here, where I proved that Maedhros did indeed kill Lalaith. Everything after that is completely pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGuard

No she was hit by a Volts-Waggon Beatle!

Okay, now you're just being ridiculous! In HoME XIV Tolkien states quite clearly that Morgoth did not unleash his VW Beatles until the War of Wrath against the Valar.

And can I just add that I never imagined in my wildest dreams that a toddler could receive this amount of fangirl love.

Blind Guardian · 07-21-2010, 11:42 AM

Orcs driving VW Beatles! Uh-oh....

I like your analagy except for the eating hand part. Maybe she dug it up, then went gross and dropped it, and, of course, never washed her hands. It would be so much simpler then saying she ate it!

Nerwen · 07-21-2010, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel

This is one of those incredibly pointless threads, where everyone knows (or thinks they know) the answer, because this topic has no definite beginning or end, and that is perhaps the very reason why people want to to ON debating about it, even though they know it will never reach an answer.

Er...did that make any sense? O.O

I think the point of this thread now, in so far as it has one, is that we're waiting for Urwen to come up with a remotely plausible Lalaith-saves-the-world scenario.

Eönwë · 07-21-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think the point of this thread now, in so far as it has one, is that we're waiting for Urwen to come up with a remotely plausible Lalaith-saves-the-world scenario.

Without any spine-ripping or mutant goose action, basically.

Rikae · 07-28-2010, 07:35 PM

What is this thread of slander against my dear Russandol, and how did I miss it? He wouldn't hurt a fly, I assure you. A mosquito, maybe... a spider, if I wasn't there to catch it for him, but really. As irritating as the young girls in our household get, he wouldn't harm a hair on their heads, and they have to be far more annoying than Urwen ever was.

Now, as for killing "laughter", he has certainly been known to make an awkward remark now and then that had the effect of, if not actually killing, knocking laughter unconscious for a good while. But that's not the same thing.

Nerwen · 08-09-2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

What is this thread of slander against my dear Russandol, and how did I miss it? He wouldn't hurt a fly, I assure you. A mosquito, maybe... a spider, if I wasn't there to catch it for him, but really. As irritating as the young girls in our household get, he wouldn't harm a hair on their heads, and they have to be far more annoying than Urwen ever was.

Now, as for killing "laughter", he has certainly been known to make an awkward remark now and then that had the effect of, if not actually killing, knocking laughter unconscious for a good while. But that's not the same thing.

*cough* wrong SoF, Rikae *cough*

Galadriel · 08-09-2010, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Without any spine-ripping or mutant goose action, basically.

Yes. That is what 'remotely plausible' means.

satansaloser2005 · 08-09-2010, 06:23 PM

Can't you read the sign?

"Please don't feed the trolls."

Is anyone else just waiting to see what Urwen comes up with next? Personally, I'm hoping for metamorphing Oompa Loompas this time.

04-27-2010, 12:23 AM	#1
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,387	Did Maedhros kill Laughter? But wise were still concerned that Maedhros revealed his growing strength too early "Always some new evil might be born in Angband." _________________________________ ....for Evil breath came to Dor-Lomin...and when Turin rose, he asked for Lalaith...and when Morwen came, he said "I'm not sick anymore and I want to see Urwen;but why can't I call her Lalaith anymore?" "Because Lalaith's dead and no more laughter is here." answered Morwen. Really,did Maedhros kill Laughter? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

04-27-2010, 11:33 AM	#2
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	No, Morgoth did. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

04-27-2010, 12:59 PM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Indeed. I don't think that questions like that have much sense - it's like asking "Did Elrond kill Gandalf?" or something like that. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

04-27-2010, 01:30 PM	#4
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	So the base question is, if everyone had just given up and stopped opposing Morgoth, would he have let them live? Given what Tolkien says about his nature in Morgoth's Ring- no. Morgoth wished to destroy all life. Ask the question about Sauron on the other hand- perhaps. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

04-28-2010, 03:35 AM	#6
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,387	No, Morgoth did. Yes,but he would have no reason to send plague if Maedhros never formed his Union. Therefore, Maedhros is to be blamed for death of Lalaith. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

04-27-2010, 01:31 PM	#7
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Or, in more words: the only way Maedhros could construably be blamed for Lalaith's death would be if by better timing his attacks he could have defeated Morgoth in time to prevent the ill wind and the plague being sent. But as Mandos made clear when the Noldor left Valinor, they never had a hope of overcoming Morgoth without the help of the Valar, no matter how great their prowess and courage and how cunning their strategies might be. So if anybody else than Morgoth is to blame, it would be the Valar for setting him free in the first place, and for taking so long to come to the help of the Eldar and Edain after his return to Middle-earth. EDIT: x-ed with the phantom. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

07-21-2010, 04:31 AM	#8
Galadriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion Posts: 551	This is one of those incredibly pointless threads, where everyone knows (or thinks they know) the answer, because this topic has no definite beginning or end, and that is perhaps the very reason why people want to to ON debating about it, even though they know it will never reach an answer. Er...did that make any sense? O.O __________________ "Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil

07-28-2010, 07:35 PM	#15
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	What is this thread of slander against my dear Russandol, and how did I miss it? He wouldn't hurt a fly, I assure you. A mosquito, maybe... a spider, if I wasn't there to catch it for him, but really. As irritating as the young girls in our household get, he wouldn't harm a hair on their heads, and they have to be far more annoying than Urwen ever was. Now, as for killing "laughter", he has certainly been known to make an awkward remark now and then that had the effect of, if not actually killing, knocking laughter unconscious for a good while. But that's not the same thing.

08-09-2010, 06:23 PM	#18
satansaloser2005 The Sweetest Spoiler Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly Posts: 5,789	Can't you read the sign? "Please don't feed the trolls." Is anyone else just waiting to see what Urwen comes up with next? Personally, I'm hoping for metamorphing Oompa Loompas this time. __________________ "My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit." Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together. Fenris bookworm.