Where were the `Blades of Westernesse` forged?

[Taimar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of the Downfallen West
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I recently asked this question in the `Legendary Weapons Quiz`. I assumed Arthedain to be the answer. However, I received an e-mail (thanks, Mark) querying whether this is indeed the definitive reply.

Doubts were expressed because of the fact that the barrow in which they were recovered was that of the `last Prince of Cardolan`. I am still of the opinion that it was likely that Arthedain was the source of these weapons, but in relation to a trivia question, `likely` is not good enough.

Would anyone care to comment?

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Where were the `Blades of Westernesse` forged?

I have always been intrigued by the realm of Arnor-and shall likely continue to do so.
There is I think no more important realm about which we no less.only 2 cities and a 'hidden fastness[tale of Aragorn and Arwen vol 12-HoME]
and evil forts in rhudaur are ever mentioned as dwelling places
[not counting bree which never seems to be inhabited by dunedain].
I know of know references to cities in cardolan or rhudaur- no capitals or smithies etc.
Here are a few guesse though.
perhaps the men of rhudaur before their decline had contacts w/ the remaining noldorin smith's of Eregion still living in Rivendell which abutted Rhudaur.
I imagine though that All 3 kingdoms had some smithies till the country was ravaged by Carn dum- smith work was not a luxury to a society of that type dependant on swords,arrowheads and spears for safety -not to mention domestic needs.
Any of the three kingdoms might well have had Arnorian heirlooms -such as weapons which would have been passed down .
Is there not a reference in the battle of pellenor fields to the smith who forged merry's sword and the war he forged it in - I can't look now - but it might at least date the sword to pre or post Arnor.



</p>

[Taimar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of the Downfallen West
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Re: Where were the `Blades of Westernesse` forged?

I know the quote to which you are referring, Lindil. It states that the blades were forged in the North-Kingdom, but is vague as to the date of their making. The Witch-King did not inhabit Angmar until c.1300. Malvegil assumed the throne of Arthedain in 1272 and it was in his reign that &quot;evil came to Arnor&quot;. The barrow in which the swords were recovered was reputedly that of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in 1409. Since we know that it was forged &quot;when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar&quot;, I think it reasonable to accept that the blades were forged between 1300 and 1409, probably later in this period, when the true nature of the Witchking could perhaps be guessed at.

If these dates are accepted, then the question is how one interprets `North Kingdom`. Arnor was dissolved in 861 after the death of Earendur and the elder line of Isildur subsequently ruled Arthedain. However, Argeleb I (ruled from 1349-1356) claimed the rule of Arnor once more. This claim was resisted by Rhudaur.

When the swords were forged, all three Northern Kingdoms were still in existence, and after 1349 Arnor can be said to have been a political reality, due to the claim of Argeleb I and his successors. I conclude therefore that one cannot say with certainty what is meant by `North-Kingdom`.
In the Tale of Years the name Arnor is also used even after the kingdom was divided.

The only statement that can be safely made is that the blades were wrought in Arnor. I think that the question I posed in the trivia quiz is unsatisfactory.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[Telchar]

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Re: Where were the `Blades of Westernesse` forged?

I stumpled on this old tread, and just wondered why nobody mentions the contradiction in:

So passed the the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse (Westernesse is westron for Numenor) <u>with</u> ...who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young

Any comments?

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000018>Telchar</A> at: 5/15/01 5:23:42 am

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Telchar

I stumpled on this old tread, and just wondered why nobody mentions the contradiction in:

So passed the the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse (Westernesse is westron for Numenor) <u>with</u> ...who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young

Any comments?

Yes, that sentence caught my eye recently when rereading this chapter (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields). Let's look at the full quote:

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

This little sword was possibly enchanted to give a nice attack bonus against Nazgul!

What did Tolkien mean by "young"? Clearly the weapon was not forged at the founding of Numenor when the Dunedain were truly young, nor was it made at the founding of Arnor 1400 years before Angmar. Is this a mistake or some kind of convolution of ideas improperly expressed? Hard to believe the meticulous JRR would have done so.

Another interesting question arises about this blade from the Minas Tirith chapter:

"‘Give me the weapon!’ he said.
Pippin lifted it and presented the hilt to him. ‘Whence came this?’ said Denethor. ‘Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past?’
‘It came out of the mounds that lie on the borders of my country ‘ said Pippin. "

If the North-kingdom perished more than 1000 years beforehand (and was sundered from Gondor even earlier -with the brief exception of Firiel's marriage to Arvedui), then how is it that Denethor recognized this blade as an Arnorian relic?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

If the North-kingdom perished more than 1000 years beforehand (and was sundered from Gondor even earlier -with the brief exception of Firiel's marriage to Arvedui), then how is it that Denethor recognized this blade as an Arnorian relic?

If it were wound with spells, the handle and the blade itself most certainly would have runes on it, possibly in Adûnaic. Denethor was enough of a scholar to detect an ancient variant of Gondorion writing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

What did Tolkien mean by "young"? Clearly the weapon was not forged at the founding of Numenor when the Dunedain were truly young, nor was it made at the founding of Arnor 1400 years before Angmar. Is this a mistake or some kind of convolution of ideas improperly expressed? Hard to believe the meticulous JRR would have done so.

I think "young" was only a relative term there, in comparison with the Dúnedain of the year 3019, when the sword was destroyed.

[Mithalwen]

I agree with Inzil that young is relative and means more when they were still vigourous and numerous rather than the nearly spent force of the War of the Ring. Also as Morth points out Denethor was a scholar, a master of lore. Even though peoples fade and kingdoms fail their artefacts often survive one way or another. Some may well have made their way to Gondor and ended up in the treasure houses of Minas Tirith which of course the steward would have access to. Valuable stuff manages to travel even in ancient times. Also since Gondor and Arnor had shared origins their style of craft were likely to show their shared origins even if their paths diverged.

[Cirdan]

Good answers!

Perhaps there was a "Museum of Westernesse" in Minas Tirith, or even more likely one in the vastly-ancient Pelargir.

It may also be that while Arnor was at war within itself and with Angmar, some Dunedain families may have emigrated south to the relative "safety" of Gondor, bringing their crafts with them.

The idea of anti-Angmar runes in Adunaic legible to Denethor seems the most likely explanation for his recognition of the blade.

[Voronwe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Where were the `Blades of Westernesse` forged?

Is it really a contradiction? I would have thought it could be 'work of Westernesse' because it was forged by the Numenoreans, though not in Numenor but in the lands of their exile.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>

[Arvedui]

I alwais assumed the Numenoreans forged them, though in Middle Earth. There was many Numenoreans in Eriador. Maybe they used the smithies of the Noldor?

[ May 05, 2003: Message edited by: Arvedui ]

[Rumil]

Could the swords perhaps have been forged in Arnor at the end of the second age, in preparation, perhaps, for the campaign against Sauron. The ringwraiths were active then, so it could have been designed as an 'anti-nazgul' sword in that age.

Just a possibility!

[Voralphion]

Maybe they used the smithies of the Noldor?

I don't see why they would've used the smithies of the elves, the dunedain were very competent at forging weapons and other things of metal and certainly could've done it themselves.
I tend to disagree that it was forged for the wars of the last alliance because I think it says it was woven with spells for the Witch King's demise. It was specifically made for the purpose of killing the Witch King, who didn't found the realm of Angmar, and hence been a direct threat, until the third age. It would've been made probablly not that long after Angmar was founded in one of the three northern kingdoms.

[Arvedui]

Yes the men of Numenor were perfectly able to do it themselves, but they were friends of the Noldor, and so I'm sure there were skills shared, and they had Tharbad very near the elven cities in Hollin, so its very possible there was mutual assistance. The blades made in Arnor is possible.

(Dang it, posting at work with al lthe interruptions.. makes it hard to articulate thoughts sometimes)