Tolkien's Influence on Babylon 5 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-10-2010, 01:56 AM

I'm in the process of re-watching the epic science fiction series "Babylon 5" and am seeing many nods to LotR, possibly also other works by Tolkien. There are those superficial references that spring to mind immediately, like "Rangers" (who have a very similar function, wandering about and defending the good side in secret) and "Z'ha'dum" (the home world of the Shadows, who are awakened by an expedition, much like the Balrog in Khazad-Dum was roused by the Dwarves, digging too deep). There are great themes, like death and sacrifice, which are of course not unique to these works, but are present in great literature and film everywhere.

The intent of the (sub-)creator is another point: When J. M. Straczynski speaks or writes about the epic, with its five-year story arc, it sounds very like Tolkien writing that he wanted to try his hand at a really long story to see if he could interest readers throughout it. (Quite possibly JMS paved the way for those series which now carry long overarcing plots - at the time of B5, this was unique and the TV moguls were very sceptical.)

There are also individual lines that jump out at me: when Sheridan says (upon Kosh's statement that he will die if he goes to Z'ha'dum) "Then I will die", it forcibly reminds me of Faramir's "Then it [his life] is forfeit."

Are there other fans of the show here that have noticed the influence? JMS has acknowledged it openly as being a respectful nod to JRRT, not plagiarism. I'd love to find out what you've noticed, and as I continue watching, I'm sure I will have more to post.

Rumil · 04-10-2010, 06:48 AM

Hi Esty,

long time since I saw this one, but really enjoyed the series until all the main characters left.

I had exactly the same thought when the Rangers turned up, especially their Aragorn-style leader (the slightly embarassing chap direct from RADA), and the Minbari are elf-ish if you know what I mean.

So there is a lot of Tolkien-y influence, but in no way a copy, as ther were plenty of stories, characters and races that had no obvious Tolkien parallels. I always thought that Londo Mollari was more Shakespearian and much of his story was inspired by the Roman Empire.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 04-10-2010, 07:36 AM

I recall how, when the series was first airing, some people accused Joe of doing "LotR with the serial numbers filed off." He had much to say about his love of it, that the references were in homage, not plagiarism. I agreed.

That being said, let us not forget Lorien, the first of the old ones, who seems like a combination of several Valar and Eru rolled into one. After a fashion, he takes the self-sacrificed Sheridan "out of thought and time," guides him through "strange paths," and helps him back to life -- but only until his "tasks are finished." Both the Vorlons and the Shadows (who seem in the end more like renegade Ainur, each trying to sway the "Children" to their notion of how the universe should be) defer to him as if he were their father.

I'm quite sure there are other things; I'm just not thinking of them right now (too early in my day).

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-10-2010, 04:05 PM

Thanks for your replies! It's good to get additional ideas from other B5 fans. I noticed an LotR movie connection, by the way, in the fourth episode of the third season: Brad Dourif plays a major role as a former criminal turned monk - quite different from Gríma Wormtongue.

davem · 04-10-2010, 05:44 PM

Long discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5_influences. I remember picking up on lots of Tolkien references while watching the series. The 'Technomage' quoting Gildor ('Meddle not in the affairs of wizards...') was the first clue for me & from then on I was watching every episode for more Tolkien references. Happy days. I keep meaning to re-visit the series, but to be honest, its too much of a commitment - & I fear that it won't live up to my memories (same reason I've never gone back to Blake's 7. There is no real going back, is there? )

Rumil · 04-10-2010, 06:14 PM

Hi Davem,

I know what you mean, I caught an episode of Blakes' 7 on some cable channel and the set-wobbliness and non-special effects weren't exactly as I remembered, likewise some of the old Dr Whos with practically unendurable sound effects. Still, randomly watched The Green Death, from Pertwee era, that was as fun as ever, so sometimes it works out.

I must say I'd like to see Babylon 5 again on DVD as iirc it was on Channel 5 with rough reception first time round, not helped by the dodgy old portable telly I had back then.

OK, so in a valiant attempt to re-Tolkienize the post, has anyone watched the Bakshi cartoon recently? I saw it many years ago on TV. Is it still as rubbish as I remember?

04-10-2010, 01:56 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Tolkien's Influence on Babylon 5 I'm in the process of re-watching the epic science fiction series "Babylon 5" and am seeing many nods to LotR, possibly also other works by Tolkien. There are those superficial references that spring to mind immediately, like "Rangers" (who have a very similar function, wandering about and defending the good side in secret) and "Z'ha'dum" (the home world of the Shadows, who are awakened by an expedition, much like the Balrog in Khazad-Dum was roused by the Dwarves, digging too deep). There are great themes, like death and sacrifice, which are of course not unique to these works, but are present in great literature and film everywhere. The intent of the (sub-)creator is another point: When J. M. Straczynski speaks or writes about the epic, with its five-year story arc, it sounds very like Tolkien writing that he wanted to try his hand at a really long story to see if he could interest readers throughout it. (Quite possibly JMS paved the way for those series which now carry long overarcing plots - at the time of B5, this was unique and the TV moguls were very sceptical.) There are also individual lines that jump out at me: when Sheridan says (upon Kosh's statement that he will die if he goes to Z'ha'dum) "Then I will die", it forcibly reminds me of Faramir's "Then it [his life] is forfeit." Are there other fans of the show here that have noticed the influence? JMS has acknowledged it openly as being a respectful nod to JRRT, not plagiarism. I'd love to find out what you've noticed, and as I continue watching, I'm sure I will have more to post. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-10-2010, 06:48 AM	#2
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Londo Mollari Hi Esty, long time since I saw this one, but really enjoyed the series until all the main characters left. I had exactly the same thought when the Rangers turned up, especially their Aragorn-style leader (the slightly embarassing chap direct from RADA), and the Minbari are elf-ish if you know what I mean. So there is a lot of Tolkien-y influence, but in no way a copy, as ther were plenty of stories, characters and races that had no obvious Tolkien parallels. I always thought that Londo Mollari was more Shakespearian and much of his story was inspired by the Roman Empire. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

04-10-2010, 07:36 AM	#3
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	I recall how, when the series was first airing, some people accused Joe of doing "LotR with the serial numbers filed off." He had much to say about his love of it, that the references were in homage, not plagiarism. I agreed. That being said, let us not forget Lorien, the first of the old ones, who seems like a combination of several Valar and Eru rolled into one. After a fashion, he takes the self-sacrificed Sheridan "out of thought and time," guides him through "strange paths," and helps him back to life -- but only until his "tasks are finished." Both the Vorlons and the Shadows (who seem in the end more like renegade Ainur, each trying to sway the "Children" to their notion of how the universe should be) defer to him as if he were their father. I'm quite sure there are other things; I'm just not thinking of them right now (too early in my day). __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill Last edited by Ibrîniðilpathânezel; 04-10-2010 at 07:39 AM.

04-10-2010, 04:05 PM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Thanks for your replies! It's good to get additional ideas from other B5 fans. I noticed an LotR movie connection, by the way, in the fourth episode of the third season: Brad Dourif plays a major role as a former criminal turned monk - quite different from Gríma Wormtongue. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-10-2010, 05:44 PM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Long discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5_influences. I remember picking up on lots of Tolkien references while watching the series. The 'Technomage' quoting Gildor ('Meddle not in the affairs of wizards...') was the first clue for me & from then on I was watching every episode for more Tolkien references. Happy days. I keep meaning to re-visit the series, but to be honest, its too much of a commitment - & I fear that it won't live up to my memories (same reason I've never gone back to Blake's 7. There is no real going back, is there? ) __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

04-10-2010, 06:14 PM	#6
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Hi Davem, I know what you mean, I caught an episode of Blakes' 7 on some cable channel and the set-wobbliness and non-special effects weren't exactly as I remembered, likewise some of the old Dr Whos with practically unendurable sound effects. Still, randomly watched The Green Death, from Pertwee era, that was as fun as ever, so sometimes it works out. I must say I'd like to see Babylon 5 again on DVD as iirc it was on Channel 5 with rough reception first time round, not helped by the dodgy old portable telly I had back then. OK, so in a valiant attempt to re-Tolkienize the post, has anyone watched the Bakshi cartoon recently? I saw it many years ago on TV. Is it still as rubbish as I remember? __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion