Grima and Saruman's Leechcraft - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

haste · 01-24-2003, 10:48 AM

I was watching TTT with one of my roomates last night and the part about Rohan had me wondering about a few things that I have never really grasp yet but have always wondered.

First, who was Grima before he became in league with Saruman? Was he just a citizen of Rohan who had climbed the ladder to become Theoden's advisor? Or was he specifically send by Saruman to begin with?

Second, and most importantly does Tolkien ever explain how Grima and Saruman actually take hold of Theoden's mind (in the movie, it doesn't seem so dramatic in the book)? Or is it just the councils of Grima that eventually lead to the withering of Theoden? I mean I'm not basing this off the movie because I know there are discrepencies. But I seem to remember always having that question on my mind and but never seem to remember it while I'm making a post here at the Downs. So if some of the Scholars could be so kind as to enlighten me a little, that would be great.

Peri · 01-24-2003, 11:12 AM

Well, I'm not a scholar, but I'll do my best to try and awnser your questions. As for the 1st one, I think Grima has been Theoden's advisor for a long time. They way they talk about him in the book it seems that he is well known which leads me to believe that he wasn't just a citizen of Rohan. I have no idea how Grima got mixed up with Saruman and it isn't really explained in the book. The only thing I can figure is that Grima once went to Isengard or something and spoke to Saruman. I could see how it would happen if Theoden had a palantir, but it was Denethor that had one and not Theoden.

eleanor_niphredil · 01-24-2003, 11:44 AM

Grima confused me to, more so in the book. For some reason, he doesnt seem to belong in the world of Tolkien.

One thing I do know, however, is that there was none of that " possessing his mind" stuff in the book. It was just Grima leading Theoden to believe that he was old and weak, under the instruction of Sauroman.

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-24-2003, 12:08 PM

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Grima Wormtongue was a servant in Theoden's house who rose to be his trusted adviser though deception and false-speaking. I believe that he was tempted into league with Saruman by promises of power over his countrymen and also that Eowyn would be "given" to him. Presumably he must have visited Orthanc at some time for Saruman to have recruited him - this rings a bell with me, but I cannot find the reference.

Eleanor is of course correct - Saruman never "possessed" Theoden in the book. Wormtongue, his servant, did just what his name implies. He wormed his way into the King's trust with his false words and deceived him into inaction and hopelessness.

01-24-2003, 10:48 AM	#1
haste Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 18	Grima and Saruman's Leechcraft I was watching TTT with one of my roomates last night and the part about Rohan had me wondering about a few things that I have never really grasp yet but have always wondered. First, who was Grima before he became in league with Saruman? Was he just a citizen of Rohan who had climbed the ladder to become Theoden's advisor? Or was he specifically send by Saruman to begin with? Second, and most importantly does Tolkien ever explain how Grima and Saruman actually take hold of Theoden's mind (in the movie, it doesn't seem so dramatic in the book)? Or is it just the councils of Grima that eventually lead to the withering of Theoden? I mean I'm not basing this off the movie because I know there are discrepencies. But I seem to remember always having that question on my mind and but never seem to remember it while I'm making a post here at the Downs. So if some of the Scholars could be so kind as to enlighten me a little, that would be great.

01-24-2003, 11:12 AM	#2
Peri Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 124	Well, I'm not a scholar, but I'll do my best to try and awnser your questions. As for the 1st one, I think Grima has been Theoden's advisor for a long time. They way they talk about him in the book it seems that he is well known which leads me to believe that he wasn't just a citizen of Rohan. I have no idea how Grima got mixed up with Saruman and it isn't really explained in the book. The only thing I can figure is that Grima once went to Isengard or something and spoke to Saruman. I could see how it would happen if Theoden had a palantir, but it was Denethor that had one and not Theoden. __________________ "Ah, but I'll begowk ye there!" cried the gentleman. "Play me false, and I'll play you cunning."

01-24-2003, 11:44 AM	#3
eleanor_niphredil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: england Posts: 805	Grima confused me to, more so in the book. For some reason, he doesnt seem to belong in the world of Tolkien. One thing I do know, however, is that there was none of that " possessing his mind" stuff in the book. It was just Grima leading Theoden to believe that he was old and weak, under the instruction of Sauroman. __________________ Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to spend my time on this forum. And by the way, for any of you turning into a penguin, stop it. ~* I am Pippin took in the Female Fellowship*~

01-24-2003, 12:08 PM	#4
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I seem to recall reading somewhere that Grima Wormtongue was a servant in Theoden's house who rose to be his trusted adviser though deception and false-speaking. I believe that he was tempted into league with Saruman by promises of power over his countrymen and also that Eowyn would be "given" to him. Presumably he must have visited Orthanc at some time for Saruman to have recruited him - this rings a bell with me, but I cannot find the reference. Eleanor is of course correct - Saruman never "possessed" Theoden in the book. Wormtongue, his servant, did just what his name implies. He wormed his way into the King's trust with his false words and deceived him into inaction and hopelessness. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!